Adjust register in games.

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بواسطة PingPong

Prophet (4096)

صورة PingPong

10-12-2022, 18:01

Hi, all. As we know v9938 lacks true circular scroll register for X axis.
However adjust register could be used to get something similar to a true circular hw scroll register.

I'm a little surprised on how little use has been made in games, most of MSX2 games resorted to 8 blocky scrolling or did not have scroll at all (an example is vampire killer for example).

recently we have seen adj register usage even in bitmap modes not only in pattern modes.
I'm wondering why game developers did not exploited this tecnique until late and for a very limited number of titles.
AFAIK the first usage was space manbow.

What are the reason of this limited usage?
Lazyness?
Difficult to master?
Lack of knowledge?

To me it's a little surprising expecially if we compared to all tricks we seen on other platforms like the C64, which was squeezed like a lemon, or the zx spectrum, where they achieved a 8x1 colour clash with accurate timing

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بواسطة Pentarou

Hero (513)

صورة Pentarou

10-12-2022, 18:40

You've forgotten ...

PingPong wrote:

I disagree, completely: the purpose of adjust register IS TO CENTER THE IMAGE, not to scroll.

YOU answered your own question yourself Tongue

بواسطة Grauw

Ascended (10708)

صورة Grauw

10-12-2022, 19:00

Especially considering that the C64 does not have a full circular scroll register either, it relies on a similarly limited range as the adjust register (0-7), after which you need to shift the name table, and yet smooth scrolling was more widely used.

I guess with the new VDP developers wanted to use the fancy bitmap modes where it is easier to make pretty graphics, but horizontal scrolling with the adjust register is more difficult.

Another reason could be that a number of titles were developed for both MSX2 and PC-88, which were limited by the latter system because of that.

Lastly, on C64 the same VDP was around throughout its entire lifecycle so developers could get intimitely familiar with it, whereas the MSX2 VDP was not around for so long so developers lacked experience and time to evolve their engines.

بواسطة PingPong

Prophet (4096)

صورة PingPong

10-12-2022, 19:47

Pentarou wrote:

You've forgotten ...

PingPong wrote:

I disagree, completely: the purpose of adjust register IS TO CENTER THE IMAGE, not to scroll.

YOU answered your own question yourself Tongue

I know the purpose, but it's not the first situation where a specific feature is used to get a different behaviour than originally it was designed to. It's not only common on MSX but also on other platforms. Take for example the badline manipulations on C64 or the snow effect on ZX Spectrum.

بواسطة PingPong

Prophet (4096)

صورة PingPong

10-12-2022, 19:56

Quote:

Lastly, on C64 the same VDP was around throughout its entire lifecycle so developers could get intimitely familiar with it, whereas the MSX2 VDP was not around for so long so developers lacked experience and time to evolve their engines.

I think this could be the most valid explanation. But to me is was also a no real effort to push hardly the system as in other platform. I've always seen on msx some kind of small effort in trying to achieve the best from the machine.
They simply stucked with was available out of the box, so to achieve smoot scrolling they needed a full circular register available and easy to work with, no effort to look more far to achieve some more.

To be concise: the msx was not squezed like other platforms, a bit underused.

It's a thing that i've also seen on games in colecovision. With the same msx vdp found on msx1 the game quality was better than games only natively born on msx1

بواسطة Pentarou

Hero (513)

صورة Pentarou

10-12-2022, 20:03

PingPong wrote:

I know the purpose, but it's not the first situation where a specific feature is used to get a different behaviour than originally it was designed to.

Nah... This is just your usual course of action.
You post some clickbait, and then inevitably you use the subsequent posts to blame the 99xx (it suxx!), praise the ZX programmers and celebrate the C64 hardware.

بواسطة JohnHassink

Ambassador (5665)

صورة JohnHassink

10-12-2022, 21:13

Pentarou wrote:
PingPong wrote:

I know the purpose, but it's not the first situation where a specific feature is used to get a different behaviour than originally it was designed to.

Nah... This is just your usual course of action.
You post some clickbait, and then inevitably you use the subsequent posts to blame the 99xx (it suxx!), praise the ZX programmers and celebrate the C64 hardware.

That's maybe a bit of a negative interpretation of the points that PingPong is trying to get across. Smile
Sure, now we know all kinds of tricks to get the best out of 'obsolete' hardware. We basically have a magic book. It's probably wise to judge any software while regarding the time, place and circumstances in which it was created.
Just an example: compare NES games from 1992 to some NES games from 1985. It almost looks like an entirely different console. It's just the 'natural' course of software engineers, learning more about the platform as the years pass.
I think that some MSX developers tried to get the most out of it back in the day, while other developers just went for quick and dirty ports. So many different people, so many different approaches to creating something.
Just my 5 cents. Wink

بواسطة PingPong

Prophet (4096)

صورة PingPong

10-12-2022, 21:49

For this situation i never blamed the TMS. You did instead. And to be honest i've pointed out a better usage of TMS in colecovision vs MSX1.

However, stay calm, i can feel your pain ;-)

بواسطة PingPong

Prophet (4096)

صورة PingPong

10-12-2022, 22:13

JohnHassink wrote:
Pentarou wrote:
PingPong wrote:

I know the purpose, but it's not the first situation where a specific feature is used to get a different behaviour than originally it was designed to.

Nah... This is just your usual course of action.
You post some clickbait, and then inevitably you use the subsequent posts to blame the 99xx (it suxx!), praise the ZX programmers and celebrate the C64 hardware.

That's maybe a bit of a negative interpretation of the points that PingPong is trying to get across. Smile
Sure, now we know all kinds of tricks to get the best out of 'obsolete' hardware. We basically have a magic book. It's probably wise to judge any software while regarding the time, place and circumstances in which it was created.
Just an example: compare NES games from 1992 to some NES games from 1985. It almost looks like an entirely different console. It's just the 'natural' course of software engineers, learning more about the platform as the years pass.
I think that some MSX developers tried to get the most out of it back in the day, while other developers just went for quick and dirty ports. So many different people, so many different approaches to creating something.
Just my 5 cents. Wink

Of course it is an interpretation. As you can see i never mentioned the TMS VDP instead the V9938.
I partially agree with you. maybe it is the natural course ov events, but is the msx i also see some kind of lack of interest in trying to push its limits during the commercial era.
As we can clearly see to some very poorly done spectrum convertions, like one i've seen time ago (i do not remember what is the title) when in the main menu there was a option named "Kempton Joystick" in the MSX port..... oO oO oO

بواسطة JohnHassink

Ambassador (5665)

صورة JohnHassink

10-12-2022, 22:35

PingPong wrote:

some very poorly done spectrum convertions

Exactly that. I think those were just made to make some quick bucks. Which is understandable for struggling software houses and programmers, in the day. But can be still disappointing. I think that actually contributed to the 'bad' name MSX still has in some user groups and scenes.

بواسطة Manuel

Ascended (19308)

صورة Manuel

11-12-2022, 01:02

Horizontal smooth scrolling is also seen on games like Psycho World or Hydefos, before Space Manbow.

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