MSX3 is Controversial?

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بواسطة janghang

Master (131)

صورة janghang

14-12-2022, 09:16

I know Nishi is making MSX3. I don't understand exactly how this project is related to actual MSX (I don't even understand what the new machine is about but it doesn't seem MSX3 extends the previous MSX machine.). I like a Japanese developer TinyYarou. It seems he has some issues with Nishi.

Can anybody explain why MSX3 keeps controversial and what the problem is?

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بواسطة ducasp

Paladin (712)

صورة ducasp

14-12-2022, 13:54

janghang wrote:

I know Nishi is making MSX3. I don't understand exactly how this project is related to actual MSX (I don't even understand what the new machine is about but it doesn't seem MSX3 extends the previous MSX machine.). I like a Japanese developer TinyYarou. It seems he has some issues with Nishi.

Can anybody explain why MSX3 keeps controversial and what the problem is?

To be honest I understand both sides... My take is that Nishi is kind of pissed off after the whole 9990 debacle and I don't blame him, being burnt because of a piece of hardware that barely sold and that there is so little software for it. It doesn't bode well for future software, too little for nowadays display, and why expand 9990 capacities to HD and waste resources when you can do much better and aligned to actual libraries/engines expectations? So he is avoiding like hell getting into conflict with the community (and my take is that his goal is to reach far beyond this MSX community and somehow get it to a PI / ESP status / crowd on the 0 and try to take a chance on the market with Turbo for general computing, and msx3 was kind of a love letter to the retro community that turned into a nightmare of sorts).

On the other hand community also had quite a few projects and news from Nishi that didn't turn into reality, so there is a lot of people that think this is just blurb and won't really be sold, others don't like the general direction towards making a device for today's needs with MSX name (because that means forget Zilog, discrete chips, embrace SOCs/FPGA/emulation for legacy), and let's be honest, every retro community is a bitch complaining about old days, old hardware feelings, wanting whatever to have a certain set of features and type of architecture, and even if you do that (MSX VR rings me a bell) still will find things to complain about (oh, it is a raspberry PI, my take, if it works great, my opinion, it doesn't matter the inside of it).

So, there's a natural friction between the guy that want to leverage a commercial success with an old brand that is out of the market so long and the elders that have their own vision of how it should have been and how it should be now...

Fact is, MSX is whatever the owner of the brand wants it to be, and whatever we dream off that is different, whether we work to make it reality or it is not likely to become a reality. Problem is that people like to complain and ask things, but you can count with your fingers, probably just one hand, how many really put an effort to create those things.

Not sure why Nishi isn't welcome in the Japanese MSX community, but what I've said above is pretty much how I see things between him and the non Japanese MSX community

بواسطة PingPong

Enlighted (4156)

صورة PingPong

14-12-2022, 15:20

the problem is more simple: you cannot make a piece of hw that has nothing to do with a retro hw like MSX and still name it "MSX3", hoping that retro fans will applaude you.
But the question is another. For which reason one should buy a hw that is like a PC or Pi or whatever when it does already have similar devices at home? To run old msx games i can easily do it with an emulator like openMSX.

We do not need a Raspberry PI to run msx sw.
We do need a continuity solution after the MSXTR in the spirit of retro hw.
And this include the V9990 chip

بواسطة tfh

Prophet (3431)

صورة tfh

14-12-2022, 16:21

I think ducasp is pretty close with his assumptions. A lot of people have a lot of different ideas about "MSX3". And even though most of us are in our 40's / 50's, we sometimes seem to be unable to have a mature conversation about such a subject, even though it's just a hobby.

بواسطة Parn

Paladin (854)

صورة Parn

14-12-2022, 20:53

I think @ducasp and @tfh nailed it. I personally don't get the animosity between Nishi and the Japanese MSX community, but I was under the impression that they were totally into the Kool-Aid. But it clearly there is no way to reconcile all the different visions vintage users and prospective new users will have about Nishi's proposals. As @ducasp rightly highlighted, MSX3 is whatever Nishi decides it to be, and we as a community will either embrace or reject it, but I highly doubt it will have anything to do with what we personally feel towards our hobby platform. I may be wrong, of course.

بواسطة AxelStone

Prophet (3199)

صورة AxelStone

14-12-2022, 21:51

It is impossible to please everyone. If you make an MSX3 aimed at older models, many people will say that it is an obsolete product. If you make a more modern MSX3, like an RPi, a lot of people will say it's not an MSX.

It's the same old story.

بواسطة sd_snatcher

Prophet (3677)

صورة sd_snatcher

14-12-2022, 23:16

Good points. IMHO, it's also related to the "sacred" MSX3 name. It was a huge frustration for the majority of the MSX users that it never was released back then.

Had Nishi named his machine "MSX4", or even "MSXNG" (New Generation), leaving the number 3 as an intentional gap, would have shown respect for the users that dreamed about the missed generation for so much time, while still showing that it's a new generation focused on reimagining the concept with modern hardware.

It's all about dealing with the human aspect.

بواسطة mcolom

Champion (322)

صورة mcolom

14-12-2022, 23:53

I agree with all these points.
Something that is great in MSX is that it's fun to develop with. You want to get something and you have all that hardware with their own rules all for you. It's an addictive challenge.

We tend to think that faster is always better, that multitasking is better, that programming a library is better than accessing the hardware directly, that high-level is better than low, etc. And yes, all this has its advantages, this is evident, but it doesn't mean that other alternatives should be ruled out. They can perfectly coexist.

I agree that having a new MSX which resembles much to a RPi running some Linux is not really interesting. However, if you offer me a machine with advanced hardware using a Z80, oh boy... I'd have much fun with it! Imagine that the BIOS (or a direct access to a port) would allow you to access several Gb of RAM only for you, without any multitasking or memory protection. And a large and direct framebuffer that I could use to render my graphics. Or perhaps some advanced VDP commands. Or a much more complete PSG. The key is that you interface with it as usual. If you want to make sound, you should interface with PSG registers, even if the hardware would be really different to the AY chip.

Keep backwards compatibility, add direct access, remove multitasking, add modern connectivity (USB, networking), and let everything be controlled by the BIOS and direct port access, and you'll have a machine you'd really like to develop with.

Well, this is what I'd love that the MSX3 is, but it's just my personal preference Smile

بواسطة aoineko

Paragon (1145)

صورة aoineko

15-12-2022, 00:09

Nishi does what he wants with his brand. Get angry about it doesn't make sense.

What is not clear is who his MSX3 is aimed at?
If it is to create a powerful computer that competes with the modern ones, it is hard to understand the added value compared to a PC and an MSX emulation using OpenMSX.

Personally, I had understood at the beginning that MSX3 was meant for MSX fans and developers, DIY enthusiasts and for training in electronics and programming. I thought there would be a small market that would make it profitable.
But the recent communication is clearly moving away from that vision and I just lost all interest.
In fact, we do not often talk about MSX3 here while development is in full swing... I must not be the only who lost interest. ^^

@mcolom This is exactly what would have made me want to invest time and money in an MSX3.

بواسطة sdsnatcher73

Enlighted (4322)

صورة sdsnatcher73

15-12-2022, 07:24

I have not lost interest but I have decided it makes no sense for me to follow all the developments going left and right and every other direction. Considering the details lost in translation as well. I will wait for the end products (as there appear to be several) and then decide if this is worth to check out.

بواسطة wolf_

Ambassador_ (10135)

صورة wolf_

15-12-2022, 15:09

I think it'd please the scene most if an MSX3 would stick to the best of what we have (tR, G9k, OPL4, SCC, IDE) and just have some of the flaws fixed. With flaws, I'm referring to things like interrupt speeds (no more manual music fixing for 50/60 Hz differences), loudness balance between sound chips, disk access not freezing the rest of the system, etc. Anything more modern will likely be compared to a PC, and fail to leave an impression.

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