dsk to floppy copy on a PC to be used on msx

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Por NYYRIKKI

Enlighted (5918)

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01-06-2016, 06:28

Toni Ramirez wrote:

Apparently USB ones rarely format as 360k, regardless of the software

I've not run into this kind of failing floppy drives, but I think I've been just lucky... I have few old IBM branded slim USB floppy drives and I've had no problems with these.

Toni Ramirez wrote:

Apparently I was right and my MSX1 has a 720k drive, because this picture shows one of my first 2 disks, full of games and containing several from Konami, it says clearly "double sided" and they have always worked.

Think the disk as a clean A4 paper. When you get it to your hands, you can read & write both sides, but if you duck-tape it to a wall (mount it to 1DD drive), you can anymore read/write one side of the paper and it does not matter anymore if the other side was written on to or not.

Quote:

Apparently USB ones rarely format as 360k, regardless of the software

I don't know if this is true or not (at least Windows can't format 360KB disks), but don't worry... You can always format the disks on MSX or then just format them to 720KB on PC and use proper software to write image to only one side of the formatted disk. Ok, this will take double amount of time to handle both sides, but just go to make a cup of coffee or something Smile

What comes to SVI-738 disk drive support... All models came with 1DD drive, but there are different versions of disk ROMs on these... Some of them support 2DD drives out of the box (only need to change the drive) and some of them don't... I seem to have a version somewhere from between... I can't format 720KB disks, but the ROM will read & write these disks fine (although very slowly) If you have old 2DD drive floating around, I suggest that you just test... If CALL FORMAT command does not give you any options, you know that you can't at least format 2DD disks... Does it support reading/writing of these can be only solved by testing.

Por NYYRIKKI

Enlighted (5918)

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01-06-2016, 06:46

Also about 1DD disks... I don't really think they intentionally ever made 1DD disks... I think these were just disks that failed to pass quality control of 2DD disks. It may seem like cheating, but back in the days when 10-pack of disks costed more than 200€ in modern day money, it was good idea to get also the faulty ones sold... I don't think this practice was done for very long, so finding real disks that are branded to 1DD might be quite a hard task today.

Por Toni Ramirez

Expert (73)

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01-06-2016, 09:26

Let me get this straight: so you think even if my disks are 720k, they may have formatted them to 360k instead? What I know is that my drive is the original one, I never replaced it and this MSX was bought brand new back in the 80s.

It occurs to me that maybe one way to confirm this would be checking how much available space remains in these disks and simply do the math. Do you know the command for this?

Anyway, do you think a USB disk drive that supports 720k would do the job with just the hole covering trick?

Por Toni Ramirez

Expert (73)

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01-06-2016, 09:27

One more thing: what all people told me so far is that formatting with the MSX will make the disks unreadable in a PC, so I think the formatting must be made in a PC.

Por meits

Scribe (6491)

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01-06-2016, 11:31

Toni Ramirez wrote:

Let me get this straight: so you think even if my disks are 720k, they may have formatted them to 360k instead? What I know is that my drive is the original one, I never replaced it and this MSX was bought brand new back in the 80s.

The manufacturer will not have formatted it to single sided. The end user does that, or someone in the chain between buying and where it ended. If you bought the disk in a yourself, you will be the one who formatted it.

Quote:

It occurs to me that maybe one way to confirm this would be checking how much available space remains in these disks and simply do the math. Do you know the command for this?

  • You could make a disk image of the disk and see what size it becomes
  • You could go to MSX-DOS and type DIR
  • In basic you could type print dskf(0)*1024 to have the same result
  • You could type call format and see if it asks you to format it SS or DS (if you don't press any key when reay your disk will not be wiped, so it's save)

The call format thing is the easiest. If you do that you have your answer, so now go try Wink

Por meits

Scribe (6491)

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01-06-2016, 11:39

Toni Ramirez wrote:

One more thing: what all people told me so far is that formatting with the MSX will make the disks unreadable in a PC, so I think the formatting must be made in a PC.

If you want the MSX to be able to read it, your best shot is to format it on MSX. A PC just doesn't format it like an MSX does. I haven't seen a PC drive that was unable to read a 720K disk formatten on MSX. However, I have seen drives that were unable to write anything to it. This is mostly a USB drive issue. The internal FDDs usually are the drives that give no problems. A lot of MSX guys and girls have a PC drive (with minor tweaking) in their MSX(es). I am one of them.
You can format the disk on your PC with the mentioned command and be lucky if your MSX can read it. Trial and error on that one. I've tried several USB diskdrives in my pre-CF/SD era. They all sucked quite hard. Maybe I was unlucky, but I'm glad this era is behind me.

Por Toni Ramirez

Expert (73)

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01-06-2016, 12:14

Meits wrote:
Toni Ramirez wrote:

One more thing: what all people told me so far is that formatting with the MSX will make the disks unreadable in a PC, so I think the formatting must be made in a PC.

If you want the MSX to be able to read it, your best shot is to format it on MSX. A PC just doesn't format it like an MSX does. I haven't seen a PC drive that was unable to read a 720K disk formatten on MSX. However, I have seen drives that were unable to write anything to it. This is mostly a USB drive issue. The internal FDDs usually are the drives that give no problems. A lot of MSX guys and girls have a PC drive (with minor tweaking) in their MSX(es). I am one of them.
You can format the disk on your PC with the mentioned command and be lucky if your MSX can read it. Trial and error on that one. I've tried several USB diskdrives in my pre-CF/SD era. They all sucked quite hard. Maybe I was unlucky, but I'm glad this era is behind me.

Thanks for the answers, but I have more questions, sorry Sad

So, if I do the call format thing, and it asks me if I want DS, that means the disk is 720?

I didn't buy any disks when I was a child. They gave them to my father with the games already dumped, so I don't know if they used 720k discs formatted as 360k or didn't. What I know is the first ones I had included a lot of games and apparently are double sided.

About the disk drives: my PC doesn't have one, and I've tried extracting some from old PCs, but the connections just don't fit, because at some point computer manufacturers decided the PCs didn't need to be compatible with floppy disk drives. Of course I need my PC to write on the disks, because otherwise I won't be able to dump new games (MFR will be for the MSX2 when I have one, and anyway my MSX1 doesn't have enough RAM (even with 64K) to read the cartridge), so I must format them in the PC. Disk Manager does format them for MSX in 720 and 360. What I need now is a USB Drive that can do 720, and I found some on Amazon.

Then, the question here is actually:

If I get a USB drive that is compatible with 720 and my MSX unfortunately reads 360 only, will the tape covering the hole allow me to do the job?

Thanks for your patience

Por meits

Scribe (6491)

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01-06-2016, 14:06

Toni Ramirez wrote:

So, if I do the call format thing, and it asks me if I want DS, that means the disk is 720?

That means that your diskdrive is double sided and can read 720K disks.
Take a look at this video.

Quote:

I didn't buy any disks when I was a child. They gave them to my father with the games already dumped, so I don't know if they used 720k discs formatted as 360k or didn't. What I know is the first ones I had included a lot of games and apparently are double sided.

If call format doesn't ask for how many sides, your drive only reads single sided disks and therefore the disks you have/use/can read have been formatted single sided by one of the previous owners.

Quote:

About the disk drives: my PC doesn't have one, and I've tried extracting some from old PCs, but the connections just don't fit, because at some point computer manufacturers decided the PCs didn't need to be compatible with floppy disk drives. Of course I need my PC to write on the disks, because otherwise I won't be able to dump new games (MFR will be for the MSX2 when I have one, and anyway my MSX1 doesn't have enough RAM (even with 64K) to read the cartridge), so I must format them in the PC. Disk Manager does format them for MSX in 720 and 360. What I need now is a USB Drive that can do 720, and I found some on Amazon.

My guess is that you will probably need a USB drive that can format 360kB. As far as I know every drive can do that but will do that double sided and that's what you don't need. As far as I know there is no way to format a disk single sided in a post modern PC nor a modern one with a USB drive.

Quote:

Then, the question here is actually:

If I get a USB drive that is compatible with 720 and my MSX unfortunately reads 360 only, will the tape covering the hole allow me to do the job?

Thanks for your patience

The tape is only to fool the PC drive that it's not a HD (1.44MB) disk but a DD (720KB and some other options) disk

Por Toni Ramirez

Expert (73)

Imagen del Toni Ramirez

01-06-2016, 18:35

Well, I just tried all you told me to do, and:

Typing "print dskf(0)*1024" in basic just returns "1024".

Typing "dir" gives "?redo from start"

Typing "call format a:", also "?redo from start"

Sad

Por meits

Scribe (6491)

Imagen del meits

01-06-2016, 18:36

start your computer without the disk in its drive. When it says it's in basic and you can start typing, insert the disk and try again Wink

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