MSXdev23 is on!

MSXdev23 is on!

by MSXdev Team on 14-02-2023, 18:32
トピック: Challenges
タグ: msxdev23, MSXdev
言語:

Hey kids, you know what time it is? It's time to get funky with the latest rendition of the long running MSXdev compo. The MSXdev23 game showcase has just announced its kick off, which will happen on February the 15th. During the 20th anniversary of MSXdev, developers are welcome to enroll with their original MSX game craftmanship in this year's free-style format.

Introduced in the year 2003, the MSXdev game compo challenges developers to create an original MSX game. The ongoing show has delivered over 200 fresh MSX games in its run, of which all credits go to the great MSX community. All for guts and for glory, these MSX developers poured their hearts and soul into crafting original 8-bit MSX game software and showcase it to the world. Meanwhile, it's that same community which stands strong and supports the compo with donations and sponsoring. With all those forces combines, the MSX scene has quite been making some waves!

The MSXdev23 edition is, just like last year, a "Freestyle" format edition, meaning any MSX hardware is supported. The rules are simple: create an MSX compatible game. Anyone can participate and it is free to enter. Software submitted to MSXdev will be treated as freeware; free to download and free to play software.

The MSXdev23 opens its doors on Wednesday February the 15th 2023, and entries are accepted until Friday October the 13th 2023. After that, a competent jury team will evaluate and score all entries in order to end up with a final ranking. Winners of MSXdev will receive either prize money from donations, or sponsored items.

And with that, the MSXdev23 is on!

relevant link: MSXdev23 information page

コメント (86)

By Uninteresting

Champion (366)

Uninteresting さんの画像

14-02-2023, 18:45

Good luck for those who intend to enter the contest.

By Wlcracks

Hero (572)

Wlcracks さんの画像

14-02-2023, 19:30

I hope this year the originality of the game will score higher jury points vs the remakes...

By Uninteresting

Champion (366)

Uninteresting さんの画像

14-02-2023, 19:38

No need to worry about my remakes scoring high, I won't be joining this time Smile

By defdanny

Scribe (392)

defdanny さんの画像

14-02-2023, 19:39

... and the evaluation of the graphics aspect is done with appropriate care and attention to detail.

By theNestruo

Champion (430)

theNestruo さんの画像

14-02-2023, 20:22

...and without blatant favouritism.

By valkyre

Paladin (703)

valkyre さんの画像

14-02-2023, 20:52

Good luck to all contestants. Looking forward to some more great games!

By JohnHassink

Ambassador (5684)

JohnHassink さんの画像

14-02-2023, 23:01

Thanks for the motivational words, guys! Let's do it.

By AnsiStar

Master (144)

AnsiStar さんの画像

15-02-2023, 10:40

I really hope that some physical releases will
come up at the end. From last year only
Lilly comes as an cartridge version i think.
I thank all you coders out there!! Wink

By tfh

Prophet (3430)

tfh さんの画像

15-02-2023, 14:16

Nice Smile I am already looking forward to this years entries!

By Latok

msx guru (3960)

Latok さんの画像

15-02-2023, 14:40

Very nice, still playing some msxdev22 entries, can't wait for new gems Smile

By ducasp

Paladin (712)

ducasp さんの画像

15-02-2023, 17:09

Wlcracks wrote:

I hope this year the originality of the game will score higher jury points vs the remakes...

Weren't Lilly and Sales Discontinued original?

Anyway, really loved they kept it freestyle Smile

By shalafi

Master (171)

shalafi さんの画像

15-02-2023, 19:26

AnsiStar wrote:

I really hope that some physical releases will
come up at the end. From last year only
Lilly comes as an cartridge version i think.
I thank all you coders out there!! Wink

I think at least Bufonada also got a physical release

By aoineko

Paragon (1138)

aoineko さんの画像

15-02-2023, 19:27

引用:

During the compo, the game is considered MSXdev exclusive.

Was does this statement cover exactly ?

By Uninteresting

Champion (366)

Uninteresting さんの画像

15-02-2023, 19:43

I've understood MSXdev-exclusivity to mean "the game is publicly available only on MSXdev site until the end of the contest (and not available for preorder either)" (not sure if that's the entry deadline or when the results are made public, so I've gone with the latter).

Penguin Run also got a physical release.

By pizzapower

Master (172)

pizzapower さんの画像

15-02-2023, 20:00

And you cannot open source the game before the contest is over of course.

By aoineko

Paragon (1138)

aoineko さんの画像

15-02-2023, 20:19

Oh... I only produce open source content.
(no way I "hide" my project for no valid reason)
If this rule is confirmed I will not be able to participate to MSXdev23. :-/

By Pencioner

Scribe (1611)

Pencioner さんの画像

15-02-2023, 21:17

You can open source it after end of contest, @aoineko, would that become a problem?

By salutte

Master (165)

salutte さんの画像

15-02-2023, 21:29

pizzapower wrote:

And you cannot open source the game before the contest is over of course.

That would be a problem if it does this mean that I can't turn the prototypes I already have open sourced into games.

By aoineko

Paragon (1138)

aoineko さんの画像

15-02-2023, 22:26

Pencioner wrote:

You can open source it after end of contest, @aoineko, would that become a problem?

My open source is non-negotiable. It's a matter of principle; I spend a lot of time developing, and sharing with the community is my main motivation.
Moreover, my games are also used as samples for my MSXgl library. I'm not going to hide these projects for 1 year just to please the organizers of a contest.

If this rule is confirmed it's a pity, but it's not a big deal. My game will be released in 2023, whether it is in MSXdev or not. Smile

By santiontanon

Paragon (1832)

santiontanon さんの画像

15-02-2023, 22:30

I would also agree with this, if open sourcing needs to wait until the competition is over, that will also be something that would detract me from participating.

By shalafi

Master (171)

shalafi さんの画像

16-02-2023, 00:19

aoineko wrote:

Oh... I only produce open source content.
(no way I "hide" my project for no valid reason)
If this rule is confirmed I will not be able to participate to MSXdev23. :-/

I've done that in the past (that rule has been there for a while)

My games are open source and the code is in github since day one. It is a question of principles as well.

It basically means you are not doing a public release in a shop or website (at least not until the contest has ended)
I never had any problem with that: Open Source games, no public "release".

They are always available on TFH anyway, so you could "download" them from there as well, and this has never been a problem, on the contrary, it is great to have them there,

By aoineko

Paragon (1138)

aoineko さんの画像

16-02-2023, 00:19

It would be nice if the MSXdev team could clarify this rule.

By ro

Scribe (5061)

ro さんの画像

16-02-2023, 07:26

Hai all,

The rule about "msxdev exclusive", just means that the game cannot be published by any other than MSXdev. It does not mean it can't be openSource, or downloadable somewhere else. For example, the game can not be published on cartridge by a company during the contest. It is an MSXdev game only in the time MSXdev23 is active.

Hope that clears things up. The MSXdev tries to keep things simple and not be picky about rules, interpretations and what not. Play fair, have fun.

We hope you like the decision to go Free-Style again.

By aoineko

Paragon (1138)

aoineko さんの画像

16-02-2023, 08:21

Thanks for the clarification Ro.

And yes, I like the decision to go Free-Style again and to welcome everyone from the MSX familly.
I just wished there was a "vanilla" category to be able to compare MSX1 games with each other (the category of games compatible with all MSX computers and which represents the biggest technical challenge).

By santiontanon

Paragon (1832)

santiontanon さんの画像

16-02-2023, 14:28

Haha, thanks a lot ro! Got scared there for a moment! haha Looking forward to this year's competition! Big smile

By Parn

Paladin (854)

Parn さんの画像

16-02-2023, 15:13

I'm pretty excited by the decision to keep things freestyle this year. I don't quite get some negativity I feel in some of the comments here, but I'm sure it will be a fun compo for everyone, both for players and developers. Smile

By Micha

Expert (110)

Micha さんの画像

16-02-2023, 15:22

ro wrote:

We hope you like the decision to go Free-Style again.

It is great that you guys organise another MSXdev again!... but it will not surprise you that I don't like the decision to go Free-Style again. I guess we'll have to live with it. Will this be the format also for future MSXdev's ?

I like the suggestion of Aoineko to have an MSX1 category/ranking. I think MSX1 game development could use more competion, recognition and appreciation.

By theNestruo

Champion (430)

theNestruo さんの画像

16-02-2023, 15:31

Parn wrote:

I don't quite get some negativity I feel in some of the comments here (...)

Some context: https://msx.org/news/challenges/en/msxdev22-results
Geez! I felt insulted reading the report and I wasn't even participating in the contest!

By Parn

Paladin (854)

Parn さんの画像

16-02-2023, 18:33

Micha wrote:

I like the suggestion of Aoineko to have an MSX1 category/ranking. I think MSX1 game development could use more competion, recognition and appreciation.

You mean like almost every MSXdev before last year's? Funnily enough, I feel the exact opposite: I personally believe MSX2 (and higher) game development could use more competition, recognition and appreciation. Most MSX game releases, be they commercial or not, are MSX1 exclusives, even without small MSX2 enhancements despite some of these being relatively easy to add. And many people seem to think MSX2 games should be held to 16-bit standards, which raises the bar even more for MSX2 (and higher) productions.

It also seems to me that separating MSX1 and freestyle categories would effectively kill the freestyle one, as already seen in the past. Even last year most entries were MSX1 games.

By shalafi

Master (171)

shalafi さんの画像

16-02-2023, 18:42

Eek!

theNestruo wrote:
Parn wrote:

I don't quite get some negativity I feel in some of the comments here (...)

Some context: https://msx.org/news/challenges/en/msxdev22-results
Geez! I felt insulted reading the report and I wasn't even participating in the contest!

LOL, mistakes are ok, as long as we learn from them.

By Latok

msx guru (3960)

Latok さんの画像

16-02-2023, 19:08

Micha wrote:

I like the suggestion of Aoineko to have an MSX1 category/ranking. I think MSX1 game development could use more competion, recognition and appreciation.

Uh, say again? MSXdev has always been MSX1 only, for 18 years or so...

By aoineko

Paragon (1138)

aoineko さんの画像

16-02-2023, 21:52

No one is speaking of making MSXdev, MSX 1 only again.
It super nice that any MSX games are now welcome.
It's just about ranking. Having a "Best MSX 1 game" category would allow to compare games that share the same technical constraints. Some don't care about technical aspect and I respect that. And other cares.

That said, we are free to take the final MSXdev23 result and make an unofficial ranking with only the MSX1 games... for those who care. ^^

By Micha

Expert (110)

Micha さんの画像

16-02-2023, 22:06

Latok wrote:

Uh, say again? MSXdev has always been MSX1 only, for 18 years or so...

Until 2015 it was, but after 2015 only the 2020 and 2021 editions were pure MSX1.
And I’m not saying that the competition should be MSX1 only, but I think it makes sense to differentiate between MSX1 and MSX2.

By Latok

msx guru (3960)

Latok さんの画像

16-02-2023, 22:44

Micha wrote:
Latok wrote:

Uh, say again? MSXdev has always been MSX1 only, for 18 years or so...

Until 2015 it was, but after 2015 only the 2020 and 2021 editions were pure MSX1.
And I’m not saying that the competition should be MSX1 only, but I think it makes sense to differentiate between MSX1 and MSX2.

There were only 2 msxdev compos between 2015 and 2020, so that makes 3 compos in total where MSX2 and up was allowed. Against all those MSX1 compos it's a little odd you want more recognition and appreciation for MSX1. Furthermore, even the most recent video or audio add-on for MSX is almost 30 years old. MSX turboR turns 33 this year. Its all very very retro and all very very MSX. That said, the games I play most nowadays are all MSX1: beamrider, galaga, bosconian, pacman, straycat, traffic jam, choroq, zanac.... Really no need for different categories, its all about playability and about all MSX hardware being loved and used!

By JohnHassink

Ambassador (5684)

JohnHassink さんの画像

16-02-2023, 23:58

Micha wrote:

And I’m not saying that the competition should be MSX1 only, but I think it makes sense to differentiate between MSX1 and MSX2.

With all due respect, Micha, but how and why do you think it will?

By JohnHassink

Ambassador (5684)

JohnHassink さんの画像

17-02-2023, 00:00

Latok wrote:

beamrider, galaga, bosconian, pacman, straycat, traffic jam, choroq, zanac....

Funny, those are games that I'd still play regularily just to relax. Good to see that your preferences are the same. Especially "Choroq" was unexpected on this list. Smile

By JohnHassink

Ambassador (5684)

JohnHassink さんの画像

17-02-2023, 01:32

Dear people, I will just have to react to this as open and honestly as I can.
Please read my words as coming from John Hassink, as an individual person and not as an organizer of MSXdev or even an admin of MRC (hardly - mostly only some editing in case I happen to spot a grammatical error).

Growing up as a Dutch guy, having MSX more as a consolation than a console, I didn't really differentiate MSX1 from MSX2. I'm aware that this is anecdotal and from my own cultural point of view. I know it's different for Brazilian MSX fans or even most of you from Spain, or Russia, for example.
Us, Dutchies, were just lucky that MSX2 was a pretty normal thing around here; endorsed, manufactured and distributed by the biggest tech company of the nation (Philips) and even employed in schools for education.

So to me, Valis II (MSX2) was just as cool as Penguin Adventure (MSX1). They were both MSX games to me.
In my opinion, Salamander (MSX1) was a better game than Twinkle Star (MSX2), despite them sharing a lot of game mechanics.
But I enjoyed Space Manbow (MSX2) more than Super Cobra (MSX1).
I liked Psycho World (MSX2) more than Nuts 'n' Milk (MSX1). Not because Nuts 'n' Milk was MSX1, or because I thought it was a bad game (which it is not) but because Psycho World was a more advanced game in every aspect. They are both sideview platformers though, in any stretch.
My favourite Laydock game? Not the MSX2 one. Not the MSX2+ one. Super Laydock, for the MSX1 is the best one in my opinion.
The Roving Planet Styrus (MSX1) has at least 50x more deeper gameplay than ButaPorc (MSX2). I would expect any jury of MSXdev to realize that. And they do.

So, I could go on and on, but you probably get my point.
I would like to even expand upon this point by stating that, to me, just to grab two examples from last year: "Sacred Valley" and "Sales Discontinued" are both masterpieces. They compare like apples and your dog on a drumkit, but both of them are crafted masterfully, with a lot of love and dedication, and both of them can run on an MSX machine.
Sure, "Sales Discontinued" needs some extra help, but so did Salamander, with its built-in extra soundchip, and the required Nemesis 2 in order to get the good ending.
To me, it's all MSX games, and I pray that you'd also see it that way.
Really, practically all entries of last year were awesome. I played DICED yesterday with my girl, because we love it. We play it all the time. And I could go on and on and on about how much I appreciate and love all the support for the contest.

I'm sorry about the dissatisfaction over last year's jury report. We all are. But guys - even the juror himself came out; realized that it could have been done better (which was also due to a linguistical/cultural barrier,) he apologized, and promised to do better next time.
So why do you keep bringing this up? I can really understand your concerns, and I fully understand that a contest like this should be considered seriously and (semi-)professionally. Regarding that, we're really doing our best, but remarks that suggest nepotism or any other kind of politics going on, that hurts. Hard. To be honest.

Around 10 years ago, viejo_archivero and robsy selected Konamito and I to take over the MSXdev torch from them.
As I already loved the MSXdev initiative, it started to grow on me, as an organizer. I started to consider it as a part of me, and a way to express my love for the MSX platform and the scene itself.
I don't want to exaggerate, nor over-dramatize things (while I'm already ranting for quite some paragraphs), but you may try to realize that organizing a world-wide contest of which people will have a lot of opinions and their own special needs, is quite tasking, even working as a team, but especially when you're also trying to maintain a family and professional life.

I'm absolutely not saying here that the MSXdev Team, whether I'll be still on it or not, should never be criticized.
Criticism is good, and should always be welcomed, in order to improve ourselves.
I'm just asking you to be fair and consider the people behind the organization.
We're all in the same boat, together. Please, let's be kind and try to consider eachother.

I hope this will be another great run for MSXdev.
Once more, we'll prove together that MSX is the greatest platform that was, while it wasn't or could have been more. ;-)
MSX1, MSX2, MSX2+, Turbo-R, Frankenstein MSX;
It's all MSX and good to me. Start your engines, revv up your creativity and let's rock 'n' roll!

John

By theNestruo

Champion (430)

theNestruo さんの画像

17-02-2023, 08:29

JohnHassink wrote:

Dear people, I will just have to react to this as open and honestly as I can.

Thanks for being open to discuss the issue. I will also talk openly.

JohnHassink wrote:

I'm sorry about the dissatisfaction over last year's jury report. We all are. But guys - even the juror himself came out; realized that it could have been done better (which was also due to a linguistical/cultural barrier,) he apologized, and promised to do better next time.
So why do you keep bringing this up?

A very poor apology; he didn't sound very sincere, in my opinion.
I kinda expected another apology. This time from the MSXDev Team. Something like "We are sorry about what happened here. We should have dismissed this particular jury's report as it was really unworthy of the MSXDev contest and not taken his scores into consideration". But there was nothing. This post is the first time I see something that may be considered a proper apology or, at least, an recognition that something was wrong and not handled properly.

If we had learn from the mistakes, as Shalafi pointed out earlier in this post, a similar remark would be on MSXDev23 rules: "Organization reserves the right to dismiss any jury report if they consider it is unfair, unappropriate, or unworthy of the MSXDev expected quality". The "members of the jury panel cannot take part in the contest with game entries" seemed to be not enough... (see below, about "favouritism")

JohnHassink wrote:

I can really understand your concerns, and I fully understand that a contest like this should be considered seriously and (semi-)professionally.

MSX is a hobby. It is not to be considered (semi-)professionally. I don't think MSXDev should be professional. But it should be respectful, and last year it was not.

JohnHassink wrote:

Regarding that, we're really doing our best, but remarks that suggest nepotism or any other kind of politics going on, that hurts. Hard. To be honest.

I'll talk openly and honestly; I'll earn some animosities from that, but I don't care anymore...
We suggest there war favouritism because, well, there was favouritism. Please play again Diced and Shadow of the Pig. Focus on the graphics. Then check the scores. Do we really think MS Paint-styled clouds of Shadow of the Pig, poor animation (despite the number of frames), and mix of styles (or the lack of them) deserves better score than the highly polished and masterfully crafted pixel art of Diced!? Honestly!? "But it may be a misjudgement and not favouritism!" Well... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8RS28GZD7s
I cannot be the only one person that finds it so obvious...

JohnHassink wrote:

I don't want to exaggerate, nor over-dramatize things (while I'm already ranting for quite some paragraphs), but you may try to realize that organizing a world-wide contest of which people will have a lot of opinions and their own special needs, is quite tasking, even working as a team, but especially when you're also trying to maintain a family and professional life.

I'm just asking you to be fair and consider the people behind the organization.

I'm just asking everyone to be fair with the contestants.
Last year, jury was not. MSXDev Team was not. And many people in this forum was not. Many people chose to look the other way, ignore the problem, and the "it's not my problem" way of life. That really triggered me.

JohnHassink wrote:

I'm absolutely not saying here that the MSXdev Team, whether I'll be still on it or not, should never be criticized.
Criticism is good, and should always be welcomed, in order to improve ourselves.

I have exposed my main criticism here, but please drop me an email if you want to continue this discussion privately.
I'm writing this because it is the right thing to do, but it is not comfortable at all having to give negative feedback to particular developers to justify the favouritism of the jury.

JohnHassink wrote:

We're all in the same boat, together. Please, let's be kind and try to consider eachother.

100% Agree.

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (10135)

wolf_ さんの画像

17-02-2023, 08:48

If something is bad, is a jury allowed to say it's bad?

See, if I'd be a jury, what I would try to prevent is to give grades between 6 and 10 rather than between 0 to 10, just to make it all appear friendly and jolly in common scene/group spirit. Of course, always with clearly written explanations. One could respect and be friendly to contestants, but how about being respectful towards the art itself?

Just asking... BA-team

By aoineko

Paragon (1138)

aoineko さんの画像

17-02-2023, 09:43

A Game&Watch game can be more fun than a Playstation5 game, I agree, but again this is not my point at all.

I think you underestimate the fun that developers can have trying to overcome the technical limitations of a machine (this is true for the whole retro scene, not just MSX). If the only thing we were interested in was making a fun game, we could do it on PC.
In most contests or sports competitions there are categories so that everyone can be compared with those who are comparable (apart from their overall performance).

And this does not exclude having a "Most Fun Game" category that includes games for all MSX generations.

By theNestruo

Champion (430)

theNestruo さんの画像

17-02-2023, 10:19

wolf_ wrote:

If something is bad, is a jury allowed to say it's bad?

If a jury's report is bad, are we people allowed to say it's bad?

wolf_ wrote:

See, if I'd be a jury, what I would try to prevent is to give grades between 6 and 10 rather than between 0 to 10, just to make it all appear friendly and jolly in common scene/group spirit. (...) One could respect and be friendly to contestants, but how about being respectful towards the art itself

Being respectful and friendly with the contestants does not imply to give grades between 6 and 10. And it does not imply to say "good job" regardless quality either. Giving good scores to everyone is disrespectful as well to the people that really deserved the praise of their work. I'll quote myself:

theNestruo wrote:

Developers deserves respect for their efforts, congratulations for their achievements, and proper and constructive criticism for their mistakes. General praise leads to mediocrity. Inappropriate criticism is annoying and demotivating. And lack of criticism prevents developers from learning from their mistakes and improving.

wolf_ wrote:

Of course, always with clearly written explanations.

That was the main criticism towards last year graphics jury reports, the dismissive and insulting "explanations".

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (10135)

wolf_ さんの画像

17-02-2023, 10:25

theNestruo wrote:
wolf_ wrote:

If something is bad, is a jury allowed to say it's bad?

If a jury's report is bad, are we people allowed to say it's bad?

Sure, everyone's allowed to say anything that conforms to the law. Even when people state that the earth is as round as a pancake. Murdoch

By ro

Scribe (5061)

ro さんの画像

17-02-2023, 13:51

Hai, all.

Thank you all for you honest discussion, I appreciate a good, open and transparent one. As a member of the MSXdev team, I'm listening in and taking notes. And I'm glad to read different opinions on whatever matter. I am well aware of the amount of reactions one might get when going public with whatever. Negative, positive, or neutral. We can handle that just fine.

The first and foremost reason for MSXdev to exist, is to have a stage for developers to showcase their skills. We, the MSXdev team, are nothing but humble servants to that cause. And, just like John, I love doing my part. It is just like writing a news post, for example, here on MRC; I love writing about what others do for MSX.

As much as the dev show is a stage, it is also a contest. And perhaps that's the part that gets talked about the most. Good reason, or not. And yeah, I can understand that not every one agrees on judge reports. As it should. I have often wondered if MSXdev would work if we just loose the contest part and only be a platform for developers.

We had a good discussion about whether this year should be classic or free-style, and we ended up with the latter. Just because we love to see any MSX related game on stage. A good game is a good game, no matter the hardware.

So, keep the discussions going. We're all in the same boat, or scene, indeed Smile Just make your point and don't dwell too long on it.

you are all awesome, see you on stage!

(meanwhile, first game is already in as are donations and sponsoring... see, you are awesome!)

By Micha

Expert (110)

Micha さんの画像

17-02-2023, 12:37

JohnHassink wrote:
Micha wrote:

And I’m not saying that the competition should be MSX1 only, but I think it makes sense to differentiate between MSX1 and MSX2.

With all due respect, Micha, but how and why do you think it will?

John, I really appreciate that you are actively seeking for as many opinions (that sometimes clash) on this as possible, even knowing in advance that some of these opinions (maybe including mine) may feel like criticism. But this is the best way to keep high standards, and a retro-game development competition that stands out above all other competition on other retro-systems. Something that we all should be proud of !

To answer your question: Probably most game players don't really care whether a game is MSX1 or MSX2. But from a developers perspective it feels unfair to compete with different sets of "weapons".

And three months ago I said this about the difference between MSX1 and MSX2 development:

Micha wrote:

For me (and probably a lot of other game developers) the main reason and biggest fun to program games on an older system like MSX is trying to squeeze as much performance as possible out of an old system. And that is why for me MSX1 and MSX2 are very different. It is way more difficult and time-consuming to squeeze the last drop of performance and best graphics possible out of an MSX2 than on an MSX1. It is really a totally different world.

By Timmy

Master (200)

Timmy さんの画像

17-02-2023, 13:28

wolf_ wrote:

If something is bad, is a jury allowed to say it's bad?

The real answer is, it depends!

A really interesting thing about this contest, and the discussions on this site, is that while it's aimed for everyone around the world, a lot of people tends to be dutch, and they talk as if the whole site consists of only dutch people. It must be an essential part of the dutch culture where they say what they believe. Tongue

In many, many other cultures, that's not what people do. In some parts of the world, people say "yes" when they mean "no", or they say "daijoubu", for example. But in a lot of cultures, mostly where people respect each other, there just is no need to say that something is "bad".

I guess that it's easy to forget that people on this site can come for different cultures, and they can interpret your message differently. It's probably fine to be direct and invasive and respectless when both partners of the discussion are dutch, but people probably should be more careful when they're not sure about what culture the other person is from, and what they expect. This may take some energy from your part, and if you are too tired to do that then that's fine too, we respect you. Smile

This also goes for people who are not familiar with the dutch culture; please have mercy on these poor dutch people, for they probably don't know how to do intercultural discussions. Shocked!

As for the MSXDev, where the original intention was to improve the number of games made for the MSX (at least that's what I gathered), I believe we should be encouraging people who spend time to make games for a contest, and have respect for the authors. Encouragements and respect should be the point of any communication to the entrants; they have spent time and energy making the games to be released for free, after all. Still, have some mercy and respect on the organisers, for they are dutch after all. Smile2

By JohnHassink

Ambassador (5684)

JohnHassink さんの画像

17-02-2023, 13:57

@ Timmy: Could you please give some examples of this, because I actually find your comments about the Dutch in general rather insulting. I hope it's okay to let someone know that they're crossing the line in your specific culture. Maybe it's normal in yours to sarcastically rip on an entire country? I wonder what culture that would be.
ro and I have always made great effort to be courteous and polite. Also, most of the former organizers and the contest itself is Spanish from origin. Most of the jury members weren't Dutch to begin with. So I don't know where this is coming from. You're being really offensive, while accusing others that they are. Strange.

By tfh

Prophet (3430)

tfh さんの画像

17-02-2023, 14:59

@John: please read timmy's comment with a grain of salt and understand the sarcasm/exaggeration here.
I understand what he means and he's got a point. And it's not specifically meant as a direct critisism on the MSXDev organisation Wink

By Timmy

Master (200)

Timmy さんの画像

17-02-2023, 15:47

引用:

ro and I have always made great effort to be courteous and polite. Also, most of the former organizers and the contest itself is Spanish from origin. Most of the jury members weren't Dutch to begin with. So I don't know where this is coming from. You're being really offensive, while accusing others that they are. Strange.

Please, you are reading too much into my text. This is not an attack. I already assume everyone from the contest is nice and courteous and professional. I am just reiterating that you are doing fine, and that you don't need to change (at least for me).

By JohnHassink

Ambassador (5684)

JohnHassink さんの画像

17-02-2023, 16:22

Well, in case that I've misinterpreted, I apologize. I will refrain from commenting for a while.

By valkyre

Paladin (703)

valkyre さんの画像

17-02-2023, 17:51

Donation made. Looking forward to what is to come.

By Bengalack

Paladin (805)

Bengalack さんの画像

17-02-2023, 19:35

Awesome. I welcome freestyle again - I hope it will encourage people to explore and discover new possibilities on both msx1 and MSX2 (and above). Personally I’ve had to slowdown a bit on the time devoted to development now, so I assume I won’t be submitting this year, but I’ll stand on the sideline cheering up the contestants. Hoping that someone raises the bar, of course Smile

By BlueCrystal

Expert (113)

BlueCrystal さんの画像

17-02-2023, 22:27

I for one laud this competition as it brings a steady flow of new software. It provides an exposure platform to the creators, for established and new names.
The freestyle edition offers something for everybodies taste and is inline with the original thought of MSX. By now it is a broad system consisting out of 4 generations with endless hardware expansion possibilities. It is up to our creativity to use this and amaze.

By mzoran

Master (161)

mzoran さんの画像

18-02-2023, 11:20

So making a separate ranking of MSX 1 entries should not be a difficult task and everyone would be happy. Why have one winner when you can have two? Cool

By aoineko

Paragon (1138)

aoineko さんの画像

18-02-2023, 11:35

mzoran wrote:

So making a separate ranking of MSX 1 entries should not be a difficult task and everyone would be happy. Why have one winner when you can have two? Cool

That's what I've been trying to explain for a while. ^^
Most contests have multiple award categories and everybody is happy with that.
Why couldn't it be the same for MSXdev?

By sd_snatcher

Prophet (3675)

sd_snatcher さんの画像

18-02-2023, 12:21

First, I would like to thank all MSXdev teams (past and present) for all their effort and time to create this ecosystem that produces so many new MSX software each year. Sadly, it's a human tendency to only focus on the negative aspects and forget to praise the good parts.

And can't describe how happy I am the freedom to choose from any MSX generation has stayed. I share the opinion with @JohnHassink that what matters to me are if the games are good or not, regardless of the generation. I also have many MSX1 games play much more and rank them above *a lot* of MSX2 games.

We all know that the contest isn't perfect. But IMHO, it has been improving each year. And, being humans, some new mistakes are also tend to happen here and there ( 😅 ), but IMHO what's important is to see if it's a repeating pattern or not, even after feedback was given.

By sd_snatcher

Prophet (3675)

sd_snatcher さんの画像

18-02-2023, 12:35

Back to the contest rules, I would have one suggestion for improvement. But please don't take this as negative criticism:

IMHO, the rule about exclusivity with MSXdev is too one-sided. Let me try to explain:

Think about movie (or music) industry: A huge amount of investment (time, money and sweat) is necessary to finish a production. Then, the movie creators try reap all possible rewards for that year, inscribing their work in all possible Awards. Later, they can use this to promote how good their work was, as it "won 10 awards".

IOW, what I'm saying is that the MSXdev should become more like an award for the subscribed entries of that year than a closed competition. And the game developer would be allowed place a golden seal of the MSXdev award on the box of their game (alongside with other awards it has won) if they decide to sell physical editions.

And some of the developers here are also work professionally in the game industry. Having won many awards is something that will also look good on their resumé.

This would be a more win-win approach. The MSXdev would still promote MSX game development, but the developers could reap better returns for all their investment. Not to mention that this would also solve the "insular problem" and increase the MSX participation and visibility on multi-platform contests that also don't have this (IMHO unexplainable) exclusivity rule.

By ro

Scribe (5061)

ro さんの画像

18-02-2023, 18:33

Thank you for your suggestion, sd_snatcher. Appreciated.

The rule states "during the contest it is MSXdev exclusive" - so when submitting a game, it's exclusive until the deadline. Then the author can do whatever he/she want to do with it. Does that fit your suggestion?

By Manuel

Ascended (19683)

Manuel さんの画像

18-02-2023, 19:43

What if the game was also submitted to another contest/platform? So, perhaps you can explain the rationale behind the rule. That probably helps.

By ro

Scribe (5061)

ro さんの画像

18-02-2023, 20:02

Simple, we want exclusive MSX software at that moment. We want it clean, simple and.. yup, exclusive. See, we keep simple rules to keep it... well, simple. Can I say so many "simple" in one comment? Play fair, have fun.

By sd_snatcher

Prophet (3675)

sd_snatcher さんの画像

19-02-2023, 14:43

Manuel already summarized very well what I would have replied. There are many contests in a year, and nearly all of the have this simple rule: the game/port must have been released that year for that platform. Because otherwise old stuff could be reheated, and that's not the point of an yearly award.

ro wrote:

Simple, we want exclusive MSX software at that moment. We want it clean, simple and.. yup, exclusive.

Ok, it's your current rationale. It doesn't need to change overnight, just like the change that allowed other MSX generations. Just please take some time to reflect about the possibility from time to time, without pressure. Wink

By SKiLLa

Expert (121)

SKiLLa さんの画像

20-02-2023, 13:53

I really appreciate the MSXdev contest, including some of the requirements; I've seen many contests fail due to 'commercial drama'.

As a professional auditor myself I recognize many of the pitfalls some jurors walked right into, but all I can say is: please don't shoot the messenger for being honest and/or outspoken; that's exactly why they were chosen (and/or successful in the field) in the first place.

The MSX community being so small & intertwined for over 25 years in many cases, doesn't make it any easier to find 'neutral' yet 'established' jurors either.

/ I'm just happy the '23 dev compo has been announced and it is free-style again !

Also: Can we please get an interview / video about the making of Sales Continued and/or the game-engine behind it; that's some serious engineering for a retro platform !

By Parn

Paladin (854)

Parn さんの画像

20-02-2023, 18:01

I would like to add my voice to @JohnHassink, @Manuel, @sd_snatcher and @SKiLLa's. I think they all made excellent points and I agree with them. I'd just like to make a couple suggestions of mine.

  • Please try to be careful not to add non-written "rules" too late. I understand Mr. Nitta's had a tall language barrier that stopped him from enjoying many of the submitted games, but for many people it came as a surprise. I personally played many Japanese games before even learning that I could actually study the language, and I'm sure this is true for many here, so it felt unfair that so many games were harshly penalized for this. I don't mean we shouldn't strive for our games to be accessible, but it seemed a bit too much to ask from hobbyists.
  • I know many games didn't seem to take much care about graphics, and of course evaluating dozens of games can be hard work, but I would take extra care to not use as much "copy and paste" critiques. Every author has his own circumstances, and it would be lovely if the juror could dispense a few directed words about how that author could improve his own work. I just want to make it clear that I don't believe anyone acted out of malice or bad faith, but I fully understand how it could be taken that way.

That said, I just want to reiterate I think MSXdev is awesome, and I thank everyone involved in its production for their hard work. I'm looking forward the day I can be part of the compo myself, and every year it's been a real treat to see what everyone has been cooking up.

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (10135)

wolf_ さんの画像

20-02-2023, 19:30

If language is/was a barrier for Nitta, then I'd suggest that jury members shouldn't comment on details outside of their field of expertise. For music you don't really need to understand much of the game, as long as there's some kind of BGM-player, or a list of MP3's.

So, a designer comments on graphics. A composer comments on music/sfx. And a coder comments on ... on what actually... ^^; On how smooth a game plays, and on the game's technical content?

By Latok

msx guru (3960)

Latok さんの画像

21-02-2023, 00:35

wolf_ wrote:

If language is/was a barrier for Nitta, then I'd suggest that jury members shouldn't comment on details outside of their field of expertise. For music you don't really need to understand much of the game, as long as there's some kind of BGM-player, or a list of MP3's.

So, a designer comments on graphics. A composer comments on music/sfx. And a coder comments on ... on what actually... ^^; On how smooth a game plays, and on the game's technical content?

I dont think there is a game where audio is more game-supportive than in Sales Discontinued. It plays an important role. It's therefore impossible to rate the audio in that game from a stand alone bgm-player. I do hope Nitta played the game, else his rating was useless.

Furthermore, reading this thread, I would suggest this years jury rates playability only. Which game do we enjoy playing. Again and again. That game should win. This time, no reports on different aspects of the game, such as graphic or sound.

By JohnHassink

Ambassador (5684)

JohnHassink さんの画像

21-02-2023, 07:06

Latok wrote:

I do hope Nitta played the game, else his rating was useless.

Ofcourse Mister Nitta played the game, as he obviously took his jury job quite seriously, and put a lot of love and effort into judging each and every one of them fairly.

Latok wrote:

Furthermore, reading this thread, I would suggest this years jury rates playability only. Which game do we enjoy playing. Again and again. That game should win. This time, no reports on different aspects of the game, such as graphic or sound.

Imagine slaving for months over a soundtrack to get every detail right, trying to make this your best game music ever.
Imagine almost drying your eyeballs out, staring at our own pixel-art, avoiding colorclash, marrying sprite to sprite, to tile to tile.
But the jury only comments on if the game is "fun" or not, like a child at a zoo.
"Yeah, it was fun. The elephants were not starved. I especially liked the icecream I got afterwards."
Then why bother?

By ro

Scribe (5061)

ro さんの画像

21-02-2023, 07:24

Latok, I'm a fan of that concept indeed; just rate the game as a whole. We've been discussing that idea behind the scenes, but we couldn't quite agree on specifics. Perhaps one day we will.

As for language barriers, yeah it happens. Rest assured that mr. Nitta was pretty involved and active in the whole process. It certainly wouldn't restrain us from looking for another Japanese MSX legend again for jury duties Wink

For the rest, this is the game and these are the basic rules. Play it, enjoy it. And yes, we are always open for suggestions as MSXdev is for and from the scene. Can't make everybody happy, luckily Smile

This "compo" is a good platform to showcase your skills, come on in and be part of the awesome.

By JohnHassink

Ambassador (5684)

JohnHassink さんの画像

21-02-2023, 07:48

IMHO, the different categories are there for a reason. Sound, Graphics, Playability. So an entry can be judged on its merits and/or flaws.
A game can be super fun to play, but look and sound like vomit. A game can be as exciting as watching wallpaper dry, but have awesome music and graphics. It should be judged particularly on these components, or even an overall jury report wouldn't make a lot of sense.

By Latok

msx guru (3960)

Latok さんの画像

21-02-2023, 08:10

No worries about appreciation, John. We are humans. We like video and audio. And we like to play. All these aspects automatically play a role when rating games. It's just that, in this scene, individual reports on different aspects of the game lead to puristic discussions. Which no one likes. So keep it more diffuse.

By Micha

Expert (110)

Micha さんの画像

21-02-2023, 08:58

Latok wrote:

Furthermore, reading this thread, I would suggest this years jury rates playability only. Which game do we enjoy playing. Again and again. That game should win.

If you would have a 3 person jury and two of them don't like shooting games, and you just made the best MSX-shooter ever...ouch.
If you have a very large jury or let the public decide, then it might make sense to just ask: what do you think is the best game ?, but the mix of ranking per category (gameplay, graphics and sound) and ranking games as a whole like in MSXdev22 makes a lot of sense when you have a small jury.

By Latok

msx guru (3960)

Latok さんの画像

21-02-2023, 09:02

Micha wrote:
Latok wrote:

Furthermore, reading this thread, I would suggest this years jury rates playability only. Which game do we enjoy playing. Again and again. That game should win.

If you would have a 3 person jury and two of them don't like shooting games, and you just made the best MSX-shooter ever...ouch.
If you have a very large jury or let the public decide, then it might make sense to just ask: what do you think is the best game ?, but the mix of ranking per category (gameplay, graphics and sound) and ranking games as a whole like in MSXdev22 makes a lot of sense when you have a small jury.

Maybe a public vote is the way to go then.

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (10135)

wolf_ さんの画像

21-02-2023, 10:06

Micha wrote:

If you would have a 3 person jury and two of them don't like shooting games, and you just made the best MSX-shooter ever...ouch.

Then that person shouldn't be chosen as member of the jury anyway. One picks a jury member based on its skills to identify quality in any game. Be it Fray, Puyo Puyo, Space Manbow or Boulderdash.

By Micha

Expert (110)

Micha さんの画像

21-02-2023, 10:19

wolf_ wrote:

Then that person shouldn't be chosen as member of the jury anyway. One picks a jury member based on its skills to identify quality in any game. Be it Fray, Puyo Puyo, Space Manbow or Boulderdash.

True, but you are quoting me out of context. It was a reaction to Latok's post that the game that you play over and over again based only on playability should win. And that is tricky with a small jury, because judging playability is even more subjective than judging sound and graphics.

By Latok

msx guru (3960)

Latok さんの画像

21-02-2023, 10:49

Micha wrote:
wolf_ wrote:

Then that person shouldn't be chosen as member of the jury anyway. One picks a jury member based on its skills to identify quality in any game. Be it Fray, Puyo Puyo, Space Manbow or Boulderdash.

True, but you are quoting me out of context. It was a reaction to Latok's post that the game that you play over and over again based only on playability should win. And that is tricky with a small jury, because judging playability is even more subjective than judging sound and graphics.

Very much in context. I agree with wolf a good juror is able to objectify. And likes them all anyway, whether it is shoot'emup, platform, rpg, strategy or puzzle.

By ro

Scribe (5061)

ro さんの画像

21-02-2023, 11:45

"Maybe a public vote is the way to go then."

Yes, having a public vote as an extra juror would be great.

We've looked into the matter before but came out empty. This is a very tricky path to turn to. But, still on the whish-list.

By shalafi

Master (171)

shalafi さんの画像

21-02-2023, 14:34

JohnHassink wrote:

Imagine slaving for months over a soundtrack to get every detail right, trying to make this your best game music ever.
Imagine almost drying your eyeballs out, staring at our own pixel-art, avoiding colorclash, marrying sprite to sprite, to tile to tile.
But the jury only comments on if the game is "fun" or not, like a child at a zoo.
"Yeah, it was fun. The elephants were not starved. I especially liked the icecream I got afterwards."
Then why bother?

Imagine obsessing over smooth gameplay, difficulty ramp, level design, progression, flow, onboarding and mastering...
And that being just part of the overall grading and hardly being mentioned by the jury.

It all depends. What is important is to have a clear criteria for evaluating the games and stick to it.

By wolf_

Ambassador_ (10135)

wolf_ さんの画像

21-02-2023, 15:14

As for a public vote: how about a courtroom jury system?

So, you'd have a regular jury crew giving detailed lectures about all aspects (like lawyers), and a carefully selected public jury (12 Angry Sceners BA-team ) to just give a ranking, without the need to substantiate their motivations. That's more or less comparable to a normal poll, except that normal polls tend to be sensitive to bullshit votes. So, you'd combine the best of both worlds; a real jury for all the deep analytical findings, and a group of people who represent the regular audience. It could be that the real jury could focus om the tech stuff, like code, gfx and music, while the audience-vote could be all about 'is it a fun game?'.

By JohnHassink

Ambassador (5684)

JohnHassink さんの画像

21-02-2023, 18:10

As, more or less, in some previous editions of MSXdev, a special "Public Vote Prize" might be something to consider, which would be its own ranking, besides the jury deliberation.

By Uninteresting

Champion (366)

Uninteresting さんの画像

21-02-2023, 19:15

I just faintly remember a previous attempt with a public vote...

That said, I wouldn't mind donating 50e or so for an annual award of "most popular new 2023 release", voted by site members who have been members before 1.1.2023. Of course, that would mean a lot of extra work for the site staff, which means I am perfectly content with MSXdev.

By Thom

Paladin (711)

Thom さんの画像

21-02-2023, 20:22

The MSXdev'23 can only really begin if we've reached 100 posts about specs and jurys. That yearly debate is part of the tradition.

By JohnHassink

Ambassador (5684)

JohnHassink さんの画像

21-02-2023, 20:24

shalafi wrote:

Imagine obsessing over smooth gameplay, difficulty ramp, level design, progression, flow, onboarding and mastering...
And that being just part of the overall grading and hardly being mentioned by the jury.

Exactly, and that's why I think that "Gameplay" should be one of the focal points and a department for the jury to give scores to.

By JohnHassink

Ambassador (5684)

JohnHassink さんの画像

21-02-2023, 20:25

Thom wrote:

The MSXdev'23 can only really begin if we've reached 100 posts about specs and jurys. That yearly debate is part of the tradition.

You are not wrong, but it has luckily really begun, as we already have a cool first entry. Smile

By Vampier

Prophet (2415)

Vampier さんの画像

22-02-2023, 15:43

msxdev is currently down

By tfh

Prophet (3430)

tfh さんの画像

22-02-2023, 21:28

Vampier wrote:

msxdev is currently down

And they're back! Yay!

By Vampier

Prophet (2415)

Vampier さんの画像

23-02-2023, 05:03

nope still down for me

By Latok

msx guru (3960)

Latok さんの画像

23-02-2023, 13:00

Indeed, down....

By ro

Scribe (5061)

ro さんの画像

23-02-2023, 14:42

onnit