Nishi is working on the Next Generation MSX

Scribe (4106)

17-08-2018, 10:07

In order not to distribute comments over different pages, here is a link to the already existing post.
Great news anyway!

By Sander

Founder (1872)

18-08-2018, 00:39

News comments can always be added next to forum posts. What's news without comments? I'm excited about this project, but I'm unsure there will be a market for it, except of course some of us. Hopefully it will not be a mini msx with non-working keys that looks like a shrunken TurboR

By cax

Prophet (3741)

18-08-2018, 04:51

I bet it will resemble this one.

By Randam Hajile

Expert (84)

18-08-2018, 12:57

Would be nice! Seeing that C64 kit in the stores now makes me want an MSX with HDMI...

By Latok

msx guru (3959)

20-08-2018, 00:06

So Nishi himself is announcing a new MSX and we have 4 comments. That's actually funny

By Grauw

Ascended (10820)

20-08-2018, 01:21

You’re forgetting the forum thread which has a few pages of speculation . As for me, gonna need some more deets to get excited . The ARM CPU makes me go eeehh…

By Pencioner

Scribe (1609)

20-08-2018, 17:17

Latok wrote:

So Nishi himself is announcing a new MSX and we have 4 comments. That's actually funny

Because it looks so strange in 2018 so that everybody silently waits for any details or so instead of reacting

By KdL

Paragon (1485)

20-08-2018, 17:26

Latok wrote:

So Nishi himself is announcing a new MSX and we have 4 comments. That's actually funny

By gdx

Enlighted (6429)

20-08-2018, 18:02

If I understood correctly, two models are developing. The first (FPGA+ARM+R800) is scheduled for before the end of the year and the second (made with customized chips and with the wireless communication function) for next year in autumn.

By zett

Hero (608)

20-08-2018, 20:15

hmm a old man refinding his old ideas.... yeah right.

By Latok

msx guru (3959)

20-08-2018, 21:45

I don't understand it at all. Commercially it's not interesting. It's being developed by a university team, so you'd expect some kind of proof-of-concept device. But information available doesn't hint at something progressive...

By gdx

Enlighted (6429)

21-08-2018, 08:55

To understand, we would have to know exactly what he is trying to do.

By edoz

Prophet (2501)

21-08-2018, 12:33

Latok wrote:

I don't understand it at all. Commercially it's not interesting. It's being developed by a university team, so you'd expect some kind of proof-of-concept device. But information available doesn't hint at something progressive...

I guess it is more for the students to understand the basics and concept and not to make it commercially.

By Sander

Founder (1872)

22-08-2018, 01:28

If you look at the logo of the ocm, you can see that that one was also aimed at students. An MSX compatible device that can program IOT devices in a evolution of MSX basic, I'll put some money on that guess. If you read interviews with Nishi or even his presentation in Tilburg IIRC, MSX was envisioned at the smart hub in your home, a bit like homekit today. It will be a system for those people that want to connect and control IOT devices, in a easy way. Or it will be a skrunken msx replica, with some games pre-installed. Like with a D4 enterprise deal Whatever the outcome, it will not be targeted at us MSX users but -hopefully- a new generation of students or another market segment. Let's pray for that If it's nice I probably buy it. Kudos for Nishi that he is at least trying like he did with the ocm. But please hire a good enclosure designer this time and change your marketing manager It's mind boggling when you read that Nintendo currently sells more SNES and NES/Famicom retro consoles than Switch consoles. MSX has a much bigger software catalog and plenty of great games to create retro console with pre-installed games. Strange that our Japanese friends don't pick up the opportunity. Probably to much copyright holders to strike a deal. We should think of a new name for the MSX Revival Revival. MSX R2? Comment your suggestions and then maybe we can do a poll

By RetroTechie

Paragon (1563)

22-08-2018, 06:13

Sander wrote:

It's mind boggling when you read that Nintendo currently sells more SNES and NES/Famicom retro consoles than Switch consoles.

€90 vs. €320. Built-in library (no less fun to play than many modern games) vs. buy games separately. Nostalgia vs. modern high powered / 3D capable / portable console. Surely there's a lot of overlap, but it wouldn't surprise me if buyers of these consoles are a very different audience.

Quote:

Strange that our Japanese friends don't pick up the opportunity. Probably to much copyright holders to strike a deal.

Just Konami, really. And perhaps a few others like Compile, Irem, Telenet, ...
But to provide people with their 'retro fix', price is everything. €100+ just wouldn't fly for the casual hook-up-to-TV-and-have-a-go player. And for most of us 'old guys' who used MSXes back in the day: too small a market to lean on that alone. So either it would HAVE to be cheap, or it'll just be a curiosity (sort of like the OCM).

By Sander

Founder (1872)

22-08-2018, 23:58

Quote:

too small a market

I don't agree. MSX sold 5 million units in Japan, and an estimated 4 million units in the rest of the world (source). That's 9 millions units total. Of course the NES/Famicom sold almost 62 million units (source), and now the NES Classic edition sold more than 4 million units (JP+world) and that number is still growing since the re-release of the unit earlier this year. But let's say 4 million units. That would mean for the "MSX Classic Mini" that there is a potential market for 580.000 units worldwide ;) Even if you write off half of that number for all the MSX computers that were only used in offices it still a big number. And we played games here on office computers during lunch time in the eighties and nineties. Back then even the general manager would come to play some games. I think now would maybe even be a better time to release a new msx device: most of our generation are now at an age that they want to experience some things of their childhood and youth again. Arcade centers are popping up again, 8-bit stuff sells for crazy prices on local secondhand markets and Nintendo Classic Mini's are sold by the masses.

By FiXato

Scribe (1743)

23-08-2018, 20:22

Sander wrote:

We should think of a new name for the MSX Revival Revival. MSX R2? Comment your suggestions and then maybe we can do a poll

MSX R2D4?

By ListoMefisto

Champion (435)

29-08-2018, 23:56

Nishi posted on his personal website (post #144) a new update about the Next Generation MSX and IoT MSX :

# 144 Next Generation MSX and IoT MSX Part 2

2018-08-28
"As I wrote about the next generation MSX, it was quite an echo so I would like to write a bit more. It is the size of Raspberry Pi, power supply is AC 48V. It is equipped with an AC - DC converter on the board and also covers the power supply of USB 3.0. Equipped with Xilinx PGA. Ethernet, WiFi, Bluetooth and USB 3.0.100 pin multipurpose bus connector. Stacking 64 boards makes it multiprocessor. OS is Windows 10, Linux, MSX OS (MSX DOS evolution form). Open source code of FPGA. Linux and MSX OS also make the source code open. Provide online groupware. Make it a platform for information exchange and information disclosure. We plan to sponsor D4E company and offer game software cheaply. Adjusting C compiler. MSX BASIC license schedule. The CPU is ARM and R800."

By gdx

Enlighted (6429)

30-08-2018, 13:34

I wonder why not choose directly a USB 3 type C power supply. It would be more convenient and probably cheaper for all.

By ren

Paragon (1947)

30-08-2018, 14:54

So there will be an actual R800 on the board?
They'll bring those back to production, or is there some old stock still?

[quote]Stacking 64 boards[/quote] que?

By hamlet

Scribe (4106)

02-09-2019, 06:21

I really like the idea of a modular computer. Nishi's idea to use the computer similar to a RaspberryPi's on the education market fits well to the previous concept of our system.
User-friendly extensions would not be a problem, a system that can be adapted to its areas of responsibility. From the smart box on the desk to the powerful server, everything can be changed in a few simple steps. Whether the computer has one or two module slots is up to you.

There are possibilities for a battery pack, for RAM upgrades and SSD or HDD kits. Every element is easy to attach, no need of cables.
These cases build for an RasbPi, but could be easily adapted to any board, they are build out of LEGO.
Please take a look at MSX.PICS

By ren

Paragon (1947)

30-08-2018, 15:13

When the time comes we can order one @hamlet?

By hamlet

Scribe (4106)

30-08-2018, 16:33

At least the building instructions, but I'm getting mad with LDD.

By Latok

msx guru (3959)

01-09-2019, 22:17

Anyone knows whats going on with Nishi? According to Japanese media he might be involved in financial fraud at his university? On his personal website www.nishi.org all his blog entries from July 2019 have been erased. Strange.

By gdx

Enlighted (6429)

07-09-2019, 10:36

It seems that Nishi was fired because 2.1 billion yen are disappeared from his university.
http://www.tv-osaka.co.jp/yasashii/news/?p=7591
We can say goodbye to the future MSX project.

By hamlet

Scribe (4106)

07-09-2019, 23:04

Did he hired once more a Godzilla to run through the streets of Tokio?
Besides we heard that members of our community worked with Nishi on this project. Maybe some of them may enlighten us now about this deal?

By sd_snatcher

Prophet (3675)

08-09-2019, 14:33

This article is easier to be translated and gives more details on the problem.

By sd_snatcher

Prophet (3675)

08-09-2019, 14:47

Interesting enough, I ended up bumping on this series of YouTube videos where he's interviewed about his past relationship with Microsoft. Too sad that there are no English subtitles, but at least those here who understand Japanese can enjoy it.

By DRomero

Expert (126)

08-09-2019, 15:55

So the past former director speculated with 100 million ¥ in cryptocurrency and now the money is lost?

What a surprise, I'm betting she not bought Bitcoin but instead other shitcoins XD

By Latok

msx guru (3959)

08-09-2019, 20:32

Well, it looks like Nishi only started at this university in june, to solve problems which occured earlier. He was dismissed from this job only months later because there was a disagreement on how to solve the issues...

By SwissPanasonic

Expert (78)

25-12-2019, 17:50

Not news ?
I prefer this, a true MSX (like C64 or Super Famicom mini) with few games included than by example MSXVR but....
Difficult to release it

By edoz

Prophet (2501)

26-12-2019, 23:44

I ordered the new C64 and the spectrum Next as well.. a real MSX from the original designers would be so cool!

By Yobi

Master (149)

06-02-2020, 12:25

It's going to be 64 bits
http://nishi.org/

Date: 2020/02/04 # 346

By hamlet

Scribe (4106)

06-02-2020, 13:41

Thanks Yobi!
The next step:

Quote:

We are making the next generation MSX at the University of Tokyo. The CPU was Z80, R800, 64bit ARM. Initially, it was a 32-bit ARM, but we changed it because people in charge of the software requested that a 64-bit ARM be better. The OS that runs on 64-bit ARM is Linux. C, Python and LISP can be used. Details are around summer.

By spacemoai1973

Ambassador (0)

06-02-2020, 17:44

I wonder what remains "MSX" about this. It's beginning to sound like a generic ARM SoC like a Raspberry Pi with MSX emulator. Nothing about compatibility with MSX cartridges or hardware. Backwards compatibility is the cornerstone of MSX!

I have more faith in TNI's 32bit MSX project, really...

By Latok

msx guru (3959)

06-02-2020, 18:48

Great news! 'People in charge of the software....' Sounds like a team! And from a university! Pretty exciting

By Pac

Scribe (7103)

06-02-2020, 19:03

Yes, I thought due to problems at university this project was abandoned definitely. Anyway after reading the lastest post I'm also wondering what kind of MSX has Nishi in mind...

By sd_snatcher

Prophet (3675)

06-02-2020, 21:48

Sounds more and more like a clone of the MSXVR...

By DRomero

Expert (126)

07-02-2020, 09:51

Clone of MSXVR indeed.

By hamlet

Scribe (4106)

07-02-2020, 10:03

Nishi's original concept of an FPGA based computer had something else in mind. Here there is certainly still development of an exciting story.
I am glad he is back in the boat and will be part of the game again.

By spacemoai1973

Ambassador (0)

07-02-2020, 16:23

Nishi's original "one chip MSX" concept 19 years ago was an ARM core running Intent + FPGA with live reprogramming. Especially the latter was quite exciting as a concept! All MSX hardware could be activated in the FPGA when necessary, but also other application-specific hardware could be conjured up. Endless possibilities.

It was that concept which led to the release of the 1chipMSX, but that did not have an ARM core or live reprogramming.

For this "Next Generation MSX" there is no mention of FPGA, but there is mention of Z80/R800. It is confusing because Z80/R800 is useless without V99x8 and all the other hardware that make an MSX.

So there are many questions:
Is the Z80/R800 implemented in FPGA afterall, together with other MSX hardware?
Or is there an ASIC with MSX functionality?
Is the Z80/R800 and everything else just a software emulation?
If the ARM is running Linux, an OS with which just about every programming language on earth can be used, what is the significance of mentioning C, Python and LISP explicitely?
Does this mean there is again an Intent-like abstraction layer that only has bindings with C, Python and LISP?

By ducasp

Paladin (712)

07-02-2020, 21:04

My guess is that it's more similar to MSX VR than anything else, it is meant to be cheap and FPGAs aren't cheap, and also most ARM SOCs have way more processing power than needed for a faithful emulation.

By FiXato

Scribe (1743)

16-08-2020, 21:57

A quick scan of Nishi's website doesn't seem to show any more recent news regarding this project?

By Pac

Scribe (7103)

27-10-2020, 13:29

Still on going... entry #435. Why 5 CPU? And an 8 bit R800...?

http://nishi.org/

By Latok

msx guru (3959)

27-10-2020, 15:43

I think he was smoking while he wrote that

By gdx

Enlighted (6429)

27-10-2020, 16:20

He says it will be some kind of virtual machine. So as duscsp I think it's something similar to MSX VR. Four VM (ARM 32bit, x86 32bit, x86 16bit and R800) powered by a ARM 64bit. Architecture of the R800 is more 8bit than 16bit.

By elmar_c_fuchs

Supporter (16)

26-11-2020, 01:13

#444 次世代MSXの可能性を考える

2020-11-24
次世代MSXのスペックを考えている。スペックを考えるのと同時に誰がユーザーになるのかも考えている。

世の中には７つのジャイアントがいる。パソコン界ではWindowsとMac。スーパーゲーム界ではXBoxとPlayStationとNintendo。スマホではAndroidとiPhone。後発のなにかが出てこの７つと戦って勝つということができるのであろうか。答えはできないというところか。王者がひとつしかいない分野はコンピューターマニアの分野だ。そこに今大成功しているのはRasberryPiである。この分野でRasberryPiと共存しながら存在を主張し、固めていくしかMSXの未来はないような気がする。ユーザーに指示されていない30年前の8bitパソコンを2020年の現在に復活させ売っていくなんて狂気の沙汰だ。

ということを考えながら現代の７大コンピューターの隙間を毎日考えている。

Google translate:

# 444 Thinking about the possibilities of next-generation MSX

2020-11-24
I am thinking about the specifications of the next-generation MSX. At the same time as thinking about the specifications, we are also thinking about who will be the user.

There are seven giants in the world. Windows and Mac in the personal computer world. In the super game world, XBox, PlayStation and Nintendo. Android and iPhone on smartphones. Is it possible that something late will come out and fight against these seven to win? I can't answer. The field with only one champion is the field of computer enthusiasts. The Raspberry Pi is now very successful there. I feel that the future of MSX is the only way to insist on its existence while coexisting with the Raspberry Pi in this field and solidify it. It is crazy to revive and sell an 8-bit personal computer 30 years ago that was not instructed by the user as of 2020.

While thinking about that, I am thinking about the gaps between the seven modern computers every day.

By Pac

Scribe (7103)

25-12-2020, 11:03

Post #458.

By Pac

Scribe (7103)

04-09-2021, 00:39

Nishi is answering questions from Japanese users about the next MSX computer.

By ren

Paragon (1947)

04-09-2021, 10:00

Have you read/translated those? If yes, could you summarize in English?

By Pac

Scribe (7103)

04-09-2021, 15:36

Just a few but Nishi is not revealing so much with those short answers...

By elmar_c_fuchs

Supporter (16)

09-10-2021, 20:15

540 次世代MSX2021-09-29
Twitterで次世代MSXのことを2週間ぐらいツイートした。親切な人がいて自分のツイートをまとめ上げて一覧表にしてくれた人がいる。ありがたいことだ。年内の発表来年の春の出荷に向けて取り組んで行きたい。

540 Next Generation MSX2021-09-29
I tweeted about the next generation MSX on Twitter for about two weeks. There is a kind person who puts together my tweets and puts them in a list. Thank you. Announcement within the year I would like to work toward shipping next spring.

By hamlet

Scribe (4106)

10-10-2021, 10:24

A sale as early as next spring?
That seems like a very ambitious goal, or -what would worry me more- maybe not.

By ivke2006

Expert (90)

11-10-2021, 18:34

Only way he could revive MSX is to position it around raspberry PI en Arduino price range en functionality plus something extra.

For example using esp32 or SAM3XXX chips. They are dirt cheap and fast.
Position it as Arduino but with stand-alone capabilities.
Now I need my Mac to program a Arduino compatible board but both chips can drive S-VGA resolution with only a few additional resistors.
Would be supercool to have a device that combines Arduino like functionality with a platform like MSX.

By sdsnatcher73

Enlighted (4289)

13-10-2021, 06:05

Well that is your opinion and I respect that but I disagree it is the only way. It could be a way but for me it would not be what Homecomputers like MSX were meant to be. In many ways a Chromebook is the Homecomputer of the modern age. Easy for young children to learn and plug it in and start playing, writing, etc. For me a new MSX would be more like that but without the tracking and more focus on coding for young to old.

By ivke2006

Expert (90)

15-10-2021, 16:32

It’s of course only my opinion

I like your idea also but Nishi will never be able to get a consortium of companies together which can invest millions of dollars. This would be necessary to be able to compete with Chromebooks.

Raspberry Pi like MSX would be considerably cheaper (maybe 15 dollars/ PCB) to put on the market and can tap into several markets (Arduino/raspberry market, home automation, educational, IOT, etc..)

Also I like Arduino because in some ways it reminds me of the creativity of MSX.

By enribar

Paragon (1224)

29-10-2021, 23:41

First photo:
https://twitter.com/nishikazuhiko/status/1453781371806093326

By ivke2006

Expert (90)

30-10-2021, 09:29

Nice!

By Pac

Scribe (7103)

13-01-2022, 16:21

MSX3 as a cartridge expansion:

https://twitter.com/nishikazuhiko/status/1481473252937457671

More tweets related...

https://twitter.com/nishikazuhiko

By Briqunullus

Paladin (763)

13-01-2022, 16:27

Does Mr. Nishi still have a SVI 728??? Wow.

By piroyan

Guardian (156)

14-01-2022, 07:54

According to Mr. Nishi, three different MSX3 will be available on Amazon during 2022.

https://twitter.com/nishikazuhiko/status/1481855210159226882

Quote:

we will have at least three products in 2022 on Amazon.
1 msx engine 3 for oem and hobby system builders.
2 msx 3 keyboard type (PRO and light)
3 msx 3 IOT cartridge for msx1, msx2, or stand alone use.

By Manuel

Ascended (19677)

14-01-2022, 22:09

He also confirmed some things we already suspected and added some more:

Quote:

"Yamaha fail to deliver 9978(later 9990) in time for MSX3. That was the reason name changed to Turbo R. We had only fast CPU. Then Pana used delayed Video chip without our consent saying extra fanctions will be machine depanding non MSX functions."

and

Quote:

"then by the side, yamaha gave the knowhows of video chip to nintendo and created super famicom without telling us anything. Was that a fair business practices? We dont think so. So we decided not to use 9990 for ever."

By piroyan

Guardian (156)

16-01-2022, 04:13

Mr. Nishi's story on how he came to develop MSX3 was posted on Twitter, and I'd like to share it with you.

https://twitter.com/nishikazuhiko/status/1482529513825181696

Quote:

A Spanish person said to me, "You left MSX alone for 30 years, so what are you talking about now?
That's true. However, the world has changed so much that I have decided to start MSX again.

When I turned 60, I wrote my resume for the first time in a long time and was offered a teaching position at the University of Tokyo, so I returned to the world of hardware. I'm back in the hardware world.
I've been thinking about IOT for the past five years, and I decided to give the MSX another try.

Supercomputers are also a major theme, with many cores CPUs from AMD, ARM, NVIDIA and others.
I want to use the MSX as a front end to run Linux, and use the many cores big chips.
I want to process the huge amount of data collected by IOT on my personal supercomputer. To do this, I'm ready to support 8K video as well as 2K and 4K.
I'm also working on an adapter for MSX3 to display 8K, with lots of GPGPU, and I hope to connect it to Sony and SHARP 8K TVs. It's not 256x192.

I've been involved in designing audio amplifiers and DACs for the past 10 years, and I've made a million yen amplifier, but I want to make an amplifier that sounds as good as that one. I'm also working on a prototype of a cheap, built-in model for the MSX3. If we can enhance not only the video but also the audio of the computer, we will be able to create something that audiophiles and critics will say is good.

I'd like to do my best to make IOT, supercomputers, and high-end audio and video available to the world at a reasonable price. I think this will allow us to survive in a different world from WIN, MAC, XBOX and PS.

I've been told that I'm an idiot for bringing up 40-year-old junk, so I've expressed my determination to catch up with the changing times, and to try to make IOT more accessible and easier to use, and to make supercomputers cheaper.

By Pac

Scribe (7103)

16-01-2022, 16:16

Thank you for sharing.

By elmar_c_fuchs

Supporter (16)

22-01-2022, 14:58

#580 MSX3はどこに向かうか2022-01-19

次世代MSXの開発をやっている。FPGAを使ったRaspberryPiと同じ大きさの基盤を中心とした40年前と互換性を持たせたコンピューターシステムの設計をしている。今年中に発表して、amazonで世界中に基盤とキーボード内蔵型とMSXカートリッジ型の３種類を売る予定だ。どういう風に受け入れてもらえるかは未知数だが、Twitterでつぶやくとかなりの反響がある。

WinやMacのパソコンと競争はしないし、できない。iOSやAndroidとは全く別の世界のものである。XBoxやPlayStationやSwitchのような上級なゲーム機でもない。結局教育用の自作パソコンの分野をターゲットにして、RaspberryPiやJetsonなどと共存するニッチを目指していくことになるだろう。Twitterで世界中の人と意見交換をしているが、MSXによってコンピューターの世界に入ったというたくさんの人から感謝された。MSXが失敗ではなかったと感じてとてもうれしかった。日本のマスコミからはMSXはファミコンに押されて失敗したと烙印を何度も押されたことは悲しい思い出である。

Google translate:

Where is the 580 MSX3 going? 2022-01-19

We are developing the next generation MSX. We are designing a computer system that is compatible with 40 years ago, centered on a base of the same size as the Raspberry Pi using FPGA. Announced later this year, Amazon plans to sell three types of boards, built-in keyboards, and MSX cartridges around the world. It's unclear how it will be accepted, but tweeting on Twitter has received a lot of feedback.

It doesn't compete with Win or Mac computers, and it can't. It's a completely different world from iOS and Android. It's not an advanced game console like the XBox, PlayStation, or Switch. In the end, we will target the field of home-built computers for education and aim for a niche that coexists with Raspberry Pi and Jetson. I'm exchanging ideas with people all over the world on Twitter, and I'm grateful to many who have entered the computer world with MSX. I was very happy to feel that MSX was not a failure. It is a sad memory that the Japanese media repeatedly branded MSX as having failed because it was pushed by the NES.

Nishi is working on the Next Generation MSX

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