MSX3 is Controversial?

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Van SwissPanasonic

Expert (73)

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18-12-2022, 11:13

I hadn't had enough confidence in the MSXVR (Spain and not in Japan, payment on order, delay too long)
I would take this MSX3 from the inventor of the MSX and from Japan.
But the clarity of the project is not obvious and yet it is important. I am very happy to see the first model complete with keyboard, compatible with MSX, MSX2, MSX Turbo-R and the download system for old games and software as well as new ones. Hopefully in the 1st half of 2023. I assume there will be an HDMI output? Peripherals (printer, pad...) will no longer have specific MSX connections but rather USB or wireless? HDD, SSD or Blu-Ray?

Van PingPong

Enlighted (4137)

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18-12-2022, 11:33

Quote:

, but Nishi didn't like MSX being seen as a videogame and even forbidden game related upgrades to the vdp (history is that multi color sprites were done by Yamaha engineers without being in the specs, and scroll was done only up/down to scroll Kanji text in graphic modes smoothly for ntt terminals using the same vdp).

If this was true, i think we need to congratulate with nishi for its BRILLIANT vision and to have contributed to the early debacle of this system. ;-)

Van Pokun

Expert (72)

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20-12-2022, 22:27

The Z80 CPU was probably perfectly fine for the '80s (although it's generally slower than the 6502) and in the '90s it was upgraded to R800. The Game Boy used the Z80-derived Sharp SM83 and was the most popular portable console there was, easily comparable to the Famicom/NES.

Like what Pingpong said, I believe the video chip is the main technical part that was holding the MSX back for things like games. Even the V9938 is pretty limited in terms of sprites and scrolling compared to the Famicom PPU or Game Boy LCD-Controller (and the SMS VDP which is more similar to Nintendo's PPUs than the V9938). And before that the TMS9918 was quite outdated already at the MSX1 release compared to the Famicom PPU and possibly even the Commodore 64's VIC-II.

The PSG was decent for audio though, and with the FM chips I think the MSX was perfectly fine in the audio department for its time (similar to the Sega Mega Drive). MSX even had a good MML from the start in MSX BASIC v1 (something the C64 were missing along with drawing commands in Commodore BASIC).

Van PingPong

Enlighted (4137)

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21-12-2022, 14:06

Pokun wrote:

The Z80 CPU was probably perfectly fine for the '80s (although it's generally slower than the 6502) and in the '90s it was upgraded to R800. The Game Boy used the Z80-derived Sharp SM83 and was the most popular portable console there was, easily comparable to the Famicom/NES.

Like what Pingpong said, I believe the video chip is the main technical part that was holding the MSX back for things like games. Even the V9938 is pretty limited in terms of sprites and scrolling compared to the Famicom PPU or Game Boy LCD-Controller (and the SMS VDP which is more similar to Nintendo's PPUs than the V9938). And before that the TMS9918 was quite outdated already at the MSX1 release compared to the Famicom PPU and possibly even the Commodore 64's VIC-II.

The PSG was decent for audio though, and with the FM chips I think the MSX was perfectly fine in the audio department for its time (similar to the Sega Mega Drive). MSX even had a good MML from the start in MSX BASIC v1 (something the C64 were missing along with drawing commands in Commodore BASIC).

To me your analisys is perfect. I cannot agree more. the real weak point of msx1 was the TMS VDP.
Ironically this chip could have been a lot more flexible with some minor enhancements like support for hw scrolling (sacrifying one row and column for game usage), 8 sprites / scanline and more flexibility in managing sprite zoom at sprite level for x/y.
Some other stupid features were the magic Y position, but i think without those issues this chip could have been a chance to keep up with all contemporary competitors.
PS=the z80 is not slower than a z80. it's faster. do not be fooled by the different clock rate, it does not mean anything .
A 6502 cpu @4Mhz require so fast RAM chips that you can use those chips with a 12-16Mhz z80.
The z80 is faster, but not due to its clock rate (that does not mean anything by itself). It is faster due to this architecture based on registers and some instructions more math oriented.
No one in the '80 clocked a z80 @ 1Mhz while this rate was common and 'normal' for a 6502

Van Pokun

Expert (72)

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22-12-2022, 00:36

Yeah the TMS9918 was definitely in need of better spriting hardware and of hardware scrolling. It was revolutionary as an off-the-shelf video chip offering arcade-style features that were usually only done in discrete logic before (the TMS9918 is the chip that coined the term "sprite" which we still say to this day), but by '83 it was starting to become a bit outdated I guess.

I think the magic Y-values is a pretty cool feature, your metasprite engine should probably handle off-screen sprites and make sure they don't get any unwanted Y-values or unwanted wrapping. I'm not so sure about the usefulness of Y=208 to hide lower priority sprites as you may want to cycle the Sprite Attribute Table to get sprite flickering (as a workaround for the 4 sprites/scanline limit), but the Y-positions of the TMS9918 do allow for smoothly sliding a sprite off the top of the screen, something the Famicom PPU can't do (without tricks such as having 8 transparent max priority sprites at the top). The PPU hides a sprite of any size at Y=240 to Y=255 for some reason, and at Y=0 the sprite pops up at the second scanline fully visible, pretty dumb but it was an early attempt at a video chip by Nintendo.
In fact Nintendo supposedly designed the Famicom PPU by looking at the TMS VDP's design, they made the Famicom with the goal to run Donkey Kong, and the best arcade port of it was for ColecoVision which used the TMS VDP.
The SMS VDP, which I think is fully comparable to the Famicom PPU (and a bit better in some regards), also kept the magic Y-values in its mode 4.

AFAIK, the 6502 is typically considered to be about twice as fast as a Z80 at the same clock rate, which is why Z80 systems are typically clocked at around 3 or 4 MHz to compensate (MSX and Game Boy both are) while 6502 are 1 or 2 MHz. The Z80 has other advantages though, like much more generous processor registers (although the Game Boy's SM83 axed the shadow ones) and a larger and more powerful instruction set, as the MOS 6502 is a cut-down (but faster) variant of the Motorola 6800 that has axed any instructions that aren't absolutely necessary in order to lower the price. The SM83 also has a "zero-page" of sorts like the MOS family.

Van Grauw

Ascended (10768)

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22-12-2022, 02:05

PingPong wrote:
ducasp wrote:

but Nishi didn't like MSX being seen as a videogame and even forbidden game related upgrades to the vdp (history is that multi color sprites were done by Yamaha engineers without being in the specs, and scroll was done only up/down to scroll Kanji text in graphic modes smoothly for ntt terminals using the same vdp).

If this was true, i think we need to congratulate with nishi for its BRILLIANT vision and to have contributed to the early debacle of this system. ;-)

I think it is common knowledge (and common sense) that the V9938 feature set was driven to a large degree by requirements for non-game software? I don’t know whether Yamaha engineers were “forbidden” things, that sounds like an urban legend, but I’m sure some things were rejected and others were requested. Surely high resolution modes with many colours to enable GUIs, Kanji display, video and photo digitisation and graphical software were high on the requirements list.

The MSX has a keyboard and peripherals, it could not possibly compete on the games console market which did not need to incur that cost. So I’m not sure how that would’ve given MSX higher odds of survival.

Pokun wrote:

I think the magic Y-values is a pretty cool feature

On the TMS9918 Y=208 is not so much an issue although perhaps an unnecessary annoyance since you can’t just place off-screen sprites just anywhere in the border area (if may need a check). On the V9938 it is more problematic since the sprites scroll along with the display offset, so when the screen is scrolled halfway down sprites with Y=208 (or Y=216 in 212 line mode) are in the middle of the visible area, causing a “forbidden line” that needs to be checked and causes a small jump in the sprite position after correction.

One solution could’ve been to not scroll the sprites with the display offset, as is the case for horizontal scrolling on V9958. Another solution could’ve been to disable the mechanism entirely since it has little to no practical use, but there was backwards compatibility to consider (even if it were disabled in sprite mode 2, the issue would persist in sprite mode 1).

Anyway this conclusion we’ve had many times before, so I’m not so sure it is interesting to go over it again. It is the way it is, every system has their nuisances, as examplified by Pokun’s example of how the NES PPU deals with sprite positions above the top border, I’m sure some NES developers pull their hair out over that too.

Honestly I think on MSX the limitations have mostly to do with bandwidth. The new V9938 modes have a lot of resolution both in dimensions and colour, better than any other 8-bit system, but moving so much data around is quite taxing on the CPU and blitter. On the other hand, the TI-83 can easily do impressive full-screen effects because it only needs to deal with a 96×64 area with 1-bit colour. The Spectrum has a similar bandwidth advantage over the TMS9918 due to its small colour attribute table.

But honestly in many respects it is a self-imposed limitation by developers, since the MSX2 does have low-bandwidth screen modes like screen 4, with plenty of VRAM to back it too for buffering and caching. However when given the choice game designers often chose better graphics over smoother gameplay.

But going back to the topic of MSX3 (in the 90’s era), thanks to Moore’s law bandwidth is one of the easier problems to solve with new silicon, as demonstrated by the V9990’s ridiculous blitting speed. So maybe it was a very future-sighted approach Smile.

Pokun wrote:

AFAIK, the 6502 is typically considered to be about twice as fast as a Z80 at the same clock rate

You should not compare them at the same clock rate, the max rated frequency of the 6502 is 1 MHz, and the max rated frequency of the Z80A is 4 MHz. The processors demand different clocks because their internal pipeline is structured differently, but the end result is similar levels of processing power at each their rated frequency. I’ll leave claims on who has the edge to others, as long as the basis for comparison is correct Smile.

Van gdx

Enlighted (6213)

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22-12-2022, 02:14

PingPong wrote:
Quote:

, but Nishi didn't like MSX being seen as a videogame and even forbidden game related upgrades to the vdp (history is that multi color sprites were done by Yamaha engineers without being in the specs, and scroll was done only up/down to scroll Kanji text in graphic modes smoothly for ntt terminals using the same vdp).

If this was true, i think we need to congratulate with nishi for its BRILLIANT vision and to have contributed to the early debacle of this system. ;-)

Everyone knows it was Yamaha that killed the MSX. Yamaha was always late in providing its VDPs. Recently Nishi said that v9938 was planned for the MSX1. I think he is telling the truth even if it had to be a stripped down V9938 (without SCREEN7 and 8). Vertical scrolling was requested by all users since MSX1. It only happened with the 2+. The 2+ and the turbo R arrived because Yamaha was not quick enough to provide the v9978 for the MSX3. Yamaha was not efficient enough. Yamaha was also too rigid with its sound chip policy to preserve its pro market. Yamaha killed the MSX-Audio.

Van Edevaldo

Master (154)

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22-12-2022, 04:14

Quote:

Everyone knows it was Yamaha that killed the MSX. Yamaha was always late in providing its VDPs.

I find it really hard to believe that Yamaha was the culprit. It may be the escape goat. If a company is always late in completing the chip designs it gets replaced. You cannot mess up two generations and expect to be awarded another design. I would question that if that was the case, choosing Yamaha again and again was the mistake. There is more to it.

A more nuanced version of that is probably that only Yamaha was interested in pursuing that market and they (MSX/ASCII/Microsoft) did not have an option. Moreover, it may even be that MSX was not a big priority for Yamaha itself. They had a fab mostly for their audio products and didn't need a very advanced technology. Even for the time it was not a stellar technology.

Many things killed the MSX. Many in common with all the other 8-bit machines of the era. But MSX could not really be seen as a serious computing alternative. It is the micro I had and love, but not market conquering material. When MSX was launched, it was already late. It was made to be cheap and it is amazing that hey were able to sell that many machines. MSX 2 VDP was a landmark. But consoles do not need to worry to much about backwards compatibility, and it was a very competitive market. MSX did well in markets that didn't have other incubents.

And there is the CPU thing... Not upgrading the CPU for 6-7 years, a CPU that was already obsolete at launch, serious limited how MSX could be perceived. Z80 was really cheap. But once the PC started rolling, you double the performance every 2 years or die. And that is what happened. At the time Turbo-R was being created and we heard the tales about this mystical "16-bit cpu". Wow. But in the end, it was too little too late and I think it even accelerated the standard demise. Cost being an important factor. As much as I like the Turbo-R and the R800, they were strategical mistakes. Those decisions are not easy.

But if they didn't try to create a new CPU, had they picked an existing cpu instead that was produced in volume and focused on a new VDP and the chipset we would have ended up with a much more capable system. It is all debatable, but I imagine something like 16MHz 386SX or something similarly capable. With the S1990 as the bridge between it and the MSX engine. Software compatibility assured by the MSX engine and a 32-bit (memory pointer) ready CPU, multiple times faster than the R800 and with clear upgrade path for the future. A compatible VDP also capable of VGA timings... And mainly, it could have happened a couple years earlier with lesser development cost.

The Z80 was a groundbreaking design. But Z80 as an ISA is very poor. It's brilliance is it's weakness. They filled all the opcode space that the 8080 had left. Added some interesting and some questionable features. Making a 16-bit or 32-bit ISA out of it it even worse than the x86 instruction set. It was a dead end. Said that, I had lot's of fun programming it.The z380 instruction set is quite interesting. Very consistent with Z80 mindset. But you need 6-8 bytes even for simple operations due to the crowded opcode space. I have a huge admiration for it. But technically it is very clunky. And late.

Van Metalion

Paragon (1625)

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22-12-2022, 08:12

Brilliant analysis 👍
I fully agree with you.

Van gdx

Enlighted (6213)

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22-12-2022, 11:17

The standard only provided for stereo with MSX-Audio but it takes two chips (which were expensive and that Yamaha wanted to keep for its pro market). If the MSX3 had been released on time with v9978 and the MSX-Audio, even with an 8-bit CPU, it would have been clearly better than the Amiga and the Atari 520ST. People judge on the price / quality ratio not on the number of bits. (eg. Atari Jaguar)

Edevaldo wrote:

If a company is always late in completing the chip designs it gets replaced.

Yamaha was a major actor. It's not that easy to change it. Especially at this time.

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